Helvetica knockoffs

[Member ren…]

This topic was imported from the Typophile platform

Hey everyone!

I have currently been looking for Helvetica knockoffs, and am not entirely sure that I've come upon what I exactly need.

As we all know, Arial is the obvious villain in this situation. However, other than Arial, what type faces are a direct knockoff of Helvetica?

I've got: CG Triumvirate, Pragmatica, Swiss 721, Nimbus Sans, Helv/MS Sans Serif, and Newhouse DT. Now, these are all clearly influenced by Helvetica, but are they also considered knockoffs?

Also, I was told by someone, fleetingly (hence the forgetfulness), that there is another typeface in existence that is also a direct knockoff of Helvetica. Described vaguely as having portions of Helvetica removed to create it. Anyone have an idea as to what it is?

Thanks in advance. :)

[Member J_P…]

Akzidenz-Grotesk (the mother of helvetica)
Folio
Maxima
Univers Std
Paralucent

[Member Mik…]

Don't forget Aktiv Grotesk

http://www.creativereview.co.uk/cr-blog/2010/july/the-helvetica-killer

http://www.daltonmaag.com/browse/fonts/dama/aktivgrotesk/

[Member ren…]

Thanks so much! This really helps.

[Member Si_…]

Here's one you missed... Neue Helvetica

[Member Chr…]

Schmelvetica

[Member cer…]

Shatter is derived directly from Helvetica.

[Member eli…]

"FreeSans is a proportional-width typeface with uniform stroke, descending from URW++ Nimbus Sans L, which in turn descends from Helvetica."

[Member Cor…]

I wouldn't call it a knockoff, but how about Haas Unica?
https://typography.guru/forums/topic/28387-forwarding

[Member Dav…]

There's a free font by the name Alte Haas Grotesk that mimics very well Helvetica under duress of soft-focus photocomposition.

Also Christian Schwartz details the completion of the custom Neue Haas Grotesk on his site, commissioned in 2004 by Mark Porter at The Guardian; Completed in 2010 for Richard Turley at Bloomberg Businessweek. This design attempts to answer the question “... but what was Helvetica really like?”

[Member Ind…]

>> Akzidenz-Grotesk (the mother of helvetica), Folio, Maxima, Univers Std, Paralucent

Calling Akzidenz-Grotesk the mother and a knock-off at the same time is interesting. It was in the form of »Serie 57« and later AG Buch though, but then you'd want to include Monotype Grotesk also and others who issued alternative letters for their typefaces to make the feel more Helvetica after it's huge success, f.e. Norma and Linea.
Univers and Folio were issued at the same time in 1957 (Univers developed since 1952), so it's hard to call then knock-off's. As I wouldn't call a further developement of the same typeface like Neue Helvetica.

But there are Aristocrat, Claro, Corvus, Geneva 2, Hamilton, HE, Helios & Helios II, Helv, Helvestar, Helvette, Newton, Nimbus Sans, Megaron, Sans, Spectra, Swiss 721, Switzerland, Vega and Video Spectra.

Maybe the book Helvetica forever is an interesting read for you.

[Member ill…]

These seem 'Helvetian' to me:
http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/paratype/pragmatica/
http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/paratype/pragmatica/

[Member Nic…]

...and others who issued alternative letters for their typefaces to make the feel more Helvetica after its huge success...

Aren't you just pumping the myth (like Helvetica Forever)?

There was a technological sea-change in typesetting at the time, as there frequently is, driven by changes in technology and business practice. If a foundry had a grot, and they all did, they reworked it. Cleaning up one's catalog for multiple-device setting -- including the most demanding and non-size-specific, typositor reel -- is something foundries were duty-bound to, not because they were aping Helvetica. AG was a prime candidate, being so very inconsistent between metal sizes.

Sabon was a cleaned-up, multi-device Garamond, and illustrative of this process, and certainly not a Helvetica me-too.

Helvetica was still a hodge-podge of metal idiosyncracies between styles (note the spur of "a" at different weights) compared to The System demonstrated by Univers, which was the iconic and intellectual centre of the movement.

Another driving force was the role of the International Style in modernist corporate identities, with design systems which demanded smoothly variable plastic qualities of a typeface, making that the focus of attention.

Avant Garde may be considered a simplified Futura, removing its style inconsistencies (e.g. pointy apexes in lighter weights, different "C" form in condensed styles, curve distortions of extra bold weights).

[Member 198…]

Anyone know why the idiosyncrasies were continued in Neue Helvetica? Christian Schwartz also kept the same spur/spurless 'a' formula for his reworking.

[Member Mac…]

coolvetica is one http://www.dafont.com/coolvetica.font ... sorta

[Member Chr…]

I saw a swash version of Helvetica once, but I can't seem to find is anymore. Anyone?

[Member Nic…]

why the idiosyncrasies were continued in Neue Helvetica?

It wouldn't be Helvetica without them, it would be Haas Unica, which didn't fly.

[Member Ind…]

“If a foundry had a grot, and they all did, they reworked it. Cleaning up one's catalog for multiple-device setting -- including the most demanding and non-size-specific, typositor reel -- is something foundries were duty-bound to, not because they were aping Helvetica.”

I'd tend to agree if Berthold or Monotype had just reworked the weight, spacing and x-height. These were adapted to the current taste (corporate needs or the international Style). But why change the design of R, G and a which formerly were the key differences?

[Member Ind…]

Christopher, scroll drown a bit: http://typographica.org/2004/on-typography/interview-phil-martin/

[Member 198…]

It wouldn't be Helvetica without them, it would be Haas Unica, which didn't fly.

They did remove the chipped flare on the 'a' and 'R' though.

—

I'm inclined to agree with Indra. Although Helvetica Forever maybe pumping the idea absolutely, it seems unlikely that several foundries would import horizontal terminals akin to Helvetica, which previously weren't a feature of the family in any weight, as a matter of tidying up optical sizes. Surely this is a matter of emulation?

Speaking of horizontal terminals, anyone know anything about the version of Helvetica that has ever so slightly angled terminals?

[Member Ind…]

At least when it comes to the wish of their designers Helvetica was never supposed to have angled terminals—how slightly they might have turned out.

And I still don't quite understand why you think Helvetica Forever “is pumping the myth” here. The source for my research was mostly Alfred Hoffmann, maybe in your opinion not the most un-biased person? But at least the material I got left no doubt for statements like these.

[Member Nic…]

...it seems unlikely that several foundries would import horizontal terminals...

Which typefaces are we talking about?
Akzidenz Grotesk had horizontal terminals in some sizes, prior to Helvetica.
But again, if one were to pick out a face as model for this feature, surely it would be Univers.

I still don't quite understand why you think Helvetica Forever “is pumping the myth” here.

It follows the "great man" approach to history, which mythologizes famous people (or fonts) as the agents of change, rather than examining the interplay of technology and society, which accords individual agents less importance.

So the book is named "Helvetica Forever," rather than "Grotesque Forever," simultaneously cashing in on the myth, and reinforcing it. Such is the feedback loop by which myths thrive.

Another element of myth-making is the marginalization of secondary players.
With the Helvetica myth, its relationship with the grotesque continuum is minimalized, hence its knocking-off from Akzidenz Grotesk is downplayed. This involves eulogizing Helvetica's color, spacing and refinement as the key qualities of Helvetica's design and success, which is no doubt correct, but does that really constitute enough design to be considered an original typeface? perhaps then, but shouldn't we know better now?

Excuse me while I get back to working on my latest typeface, Gotham with the terminals straightened out, to be named Cabotia.

[Member Ang…]

Excuse me while I get back to working on my latest typeface, Gotham with the terminals straightened out, to be named Cabotia.

Gotham, another knockoff in itself. :)

[Member 198…]

There are, I think, two other typefaces included in the appendix to Indra's book showing replacement characters. Unfortunately I do not have my copy to hand but I'm sure Indra can fill in the blanks. The point is that it is not just AG that received similar changes.

—

I disagree that the Helvetica process was 'knocking off' and or that it is downplayed by Helvetica Forever. The whole published document shows a continued comparison to AG, there are no attempts to hide these comparisons in this book at least. This is perhaps a myth that you are pumping! I sympathise with the great man idea of history and the title, Helvetica Forever, does lend itself that way, but the actual content continually refers back to AG. It is easy to celebrate Univers independence as a project, and rightly so, but I don't find that this degrades Helvetica, nor Haas Unica for the same reason. For me this celebrates the split-hair nature of the task and makes me less cynical, not more.

Nick, I believe you have taken on challenges before, after a Typophile thread, which resulted in the drawing of a font? I challenge you to take AG's 'e' and 's' and manually change them with pen, paper, paint or appropriate historical technique, to those of Helvetica. According to your own assessment it should not take too much time away from your much simpler project, the digital Cabotia :-)

[Member Nic…]

This is perhaps a myth that you are pumping!

Well, I've only glanced at the book, so perhaps I should shut up about it.

I challenge you to take AG's 'e' and 's' and manually change them with pen, paper, paint or appropriate historical technique, to those of Helvetica

That's not really necessary, as there were certain sizes of AG which already had those features: