Helvetica knockoffs

[Member Nic…]

Here is another scan from the 1954 Berthold specimen, the bottom setting below, which I have duplicated above digitally, with a Helvetica font, with no letterspacing adjustments.

[Member Ind…]

Andrew, do you mean Record-Gothic and Monotype-Groteque? Those got alternative characters in the Swiss style (to avoid the »great man« fairytale) in 1961, Forma and Linea in 1966 while the major redesign of Akzidenz-Grotesk by GGL I was referring to was issued in 1969.

New characters of Monotype Grotesque:

Record Gothic as reissued in 1961:

Akzidenz-Grotesk Buch from 1969 (above) and Old Style (below):

We never downplayed the »knocking-off« from Akzidenz-Grotesk (or rather the wishful mimicing of its sucess) anywhere in the book. It was prominently mentioned as a key source right in the first paragraph of the essay, page 21 (unfortunately I only have the German version at hand) and I explained her role in detail again in the captions to Hoffmann's sketch book reprint as well as in the later chapters. Nonetheless—Breite Halbfette Grotesk, respectively Französische Grotesk and Normal Grotesk were just as influencial.

[Member 198…]

Indra those are indeed the amended typefaces that I was referencing from your book, thanks.

Nick, I confess I hadn't seen the versions of AG other than Series 57 that featured horizontal terminals throughout, so thanks for taking the time to upload. That aside, I still think the challenge to take the version of AG examined in Helvetica Forever, to Helvetica itself, would be fairly intense, especially with the available technology. That is what the design record at the centre of the book charts over many drawings and reflections. Even if these are within a finite ballpark, they are quite searching. Unsurprisingly there are plenty of exacting comparisons between the two faces, much like the one you have created!

I have a feeling it is in a type designer's interest to reserve the terms 'knock off' for faces containing the exact same information, passed off under different names, than to describe the story of Helvetica, Haas Unica or other review based work.

[Member Cor…]

We've gone a bit over my head at this point, but I'll throw this into the ring. Not certain I'd call New Rail Alphabet a knock off either, but a rethinking??? Regardless, it's a damn handsome typeface.
http://www.newrailalphabet.co.uk/

[Member Nic…]

I have a feeling it is in a type designer's interest to reserve the terms 'knock off' for faces containing the exact same information, passed off under different names, than to describe the story of Helvetica, Haas Unica or other review based work.

So if someone were to take Gotham, make the x-height a bit smaller, straighten up the terminals, and rename it, that wouldn't be a knock-off, but legitimate "review based work"?

[Member 198…]

Apply only those processes to the AG and you won't have Helvetica.

The reason I advise caution bandying the term 'knock-off' around and suggest it is in your interest not to cry wolf on the issue is so that people take note when someone does manipulate your font in such a manner.

As for Gotham – it is celebrated because it delivers a very smooth version of a flavour we all know.

I quote from H&FJ site: Gotham is that rarest of designs, the new typeface that somehow feels familiar.

[Member Ang…]

So if someone were to take Gotham, make the x-height a bit smaller, straighten up the terminals, and rename it, that wouldn't be a knock-off, but legitimate "review based work"?

no, I would think that would be a direct violation of copyright laws and illegal and punishable by law. :)

and i think a "knockoff" is more of an obvious optical similarity or too similar idea to another contemporary design, isn't it?

[Member 198…]

Corey, I'm happy to see New Rail Alphabet, and Aktiv and all the rest. Less interested in the sales pitch on the latter, negativity is a bit uninspiring! I was stuck in hospital (United Kingdom) recently and was surprised to see some old signage still using the original Rail design. I was able to identify it from only four letters: B, a, t and h.

[Member typ…]

It's hard not to veer too close Helvetica/AG/Arial because they're balanced, conventional and expressionless. GGX88 was designed as text companion to Avant Garde Gothic headings for a set-top box display system. Designing a balanced, somewhat modular sans serif font with a large x-height, not much expression and conventional shapes can bring you really close to Helvetica unless consciously taking measures to avoid it. In the case of GGX88, my client was interested in sharing some of the characteristics of Avant Garde Gothic while remaining conventional & neutral.

[Member ill…]

Like Ray Larabie said: "If you work on a font long enough it will turn into Helvetica." ;-)

[Member ger…]

1985: there's info about the kinnear and calvert NHS signage in an article in one of the C20 society journals--PM me for more info if interested.

[Member ger…]

so it took me three months to come up with this third-rate photo...

[Member qua…]

I suppose that Max Miedinger's Neue Haas Grotesk, now known as Helvetica, can be considered to be somewhat illegitimately derived from Berthold's Akzidenz-Grotesk, given that Haas hadn't acquired Berthold at that time or anything like that.

However, while it did use Akzidenz-Grotesk as a source of inspiration, while that face brought some new things to sans-serif faces, it was still not that attractive or inspiring. It was just another sans-serif face in a crowded field.

Helvetica, on the other hand, was beautiful and magical. That's what makes me come down firmly on the side of viewing it as a new creation, not plagiarism. There are many, many typefaces out there - but their existence can't be allowed to prevent the creation of new typefaces, even if almost any new typeface, unless it's a very weird-looking display face, is going to look close to something else out there. Subtleties are not trifles in typography.

[Member Dun…]

I suppose that Max Miedinger's Neue Haas Grotesk, now known as Helvetica, can be considered to be somewhat illegitimately derived from Berthold's Akzidenz-Grotesk, given that Haas hadn't acquired Berthold at that time or anything like that.

This notion that Heveltica is somehow a plagiarism of the brilliant Akzidenz Grotesk is a load of rubbish that needs to be hauled off to a landfill. Akzidenz Grotesk was not some work of pure genius that sprang up in 1890s Germany; its design was no more original than Helvetica was. Akzidenz was a collection of similar grots that were derivatives of older grots that were also derivatives of older grots. A Cincinnati Type Foundry specimen from the 1860s at Butler Library shows a font that’s a dead ringer for the regular weight of Akzidenz and I doubt that one was especially original. We need to avoid creating sloppy narratives that try to show type design as a string of genius moments and ripoffs and accept it for the slow, deliberate, and derivative process that it usually is.

[Member 198…]

Geraint, better late than never!

James: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11706476

[Member qua…]

Incidentally, in searching for information about Haas Unica, I found that this face is currently unavailable because of a dispute between two companies about which one inherited the rights to it from Haas.

From an aesthetic viewpoint, it seems to me that indeed it moves away from Helvetica to Univers or Akzidenz-Grotesk, but its lack of success can't be used as evidence of any failings in the face itself, as it is its circumstances that have precluded success.

[Member qua…]

Also, my web searches turned up another face similar to Helvetica. Like the Romain du Roi, this one was presumably developed to protect against forgery - in this case of signage. The Rail Alphabet, used by British Rail.

[Member typ…]

Haas Unica, combining the design characteristics of UNivers and HelvetICA.
A really great knockoff by Team 77, André Gurtler, Erich Gschwind and Christian Mengelt.

David Berlow's Titling Gothic FB is nice.

[Member ger…]

quadibloc: the kinneir/calvert team were behind that one also, IIRC. they branded British Rail, the NHS, the motorways, a big chunk of the welfare state.

[Member Dun…]

David Berlow's Titling Gothic FB is nice

Again with the lazy history.

[Member qua…]

Here's the Gothic (some other weights are also present) from the Cincinnati type specimen for 1870. Akzidenz Grotesk it isn't, although it has some interesting properties:

It clearly is humanistic rather than geometric, and it isn't horribly ugly like many of the older grotesques, so it could indeed be categorized as a neo-grotesque. But it's not clear to me that this is actually all that far ahead of its time, as Franklin Gothic already existed back then.

Note how capital C and capital U, for example, have varying stroke widths. That's definitely not Akzidenz, but it is very interesting.

Now, the light weight may look a bit more like Akzidenz, but then the basic letter forms have been around for a long time in handprint...

For comparison...

[Member Vin…]

Arial - the font designed, made and commissioned so that Microsoft could have a slice of Helvetica.