Isn't this just modified Papyrus?...

[Member Ber…]

In answer to the original question, the roots are obvious. My hope is that it is an example of the sincerest form of flattery. It comes from a fresh trace and it is modified quite a bit as an exercise in making a font I couldn't use into one that I now use all the time. Yes, it has sold some (a few dozen copies), but it is certainly no threat to Papyrus.

I'm releasing one next week that is a tracing of a printed page of Erasmus, one of Solo's old display fonts. It too is heavily modified (and it is only part of a new study on making a book font family I can actually use). I really like it and I am making it mine while tearing it apart to try and see why it is so attractive to me.

Here are some comments on why I did Artichoke:

1. Seeing how Chris did it.

2. Make a font I could actually use

3. Yes, I did spend a ridiculous amount of time on it. Well over a hundred hours, as I recall.

4. Yes, I am pleased with the result. I use the font often and I can not use Papyrus much as is is because it is missing too many crucial things for me: my normal OpenType set with small caps, lining, oldstyle and small cap figures, and so on

I hope it is not too offensive to you all. It is not a nefarious plot. Myfonts only approved it after they saw my original tracings. It is certainly not an attempt to make money on Chris. It will probably end up in a new display font eventually. Remember, I'm just an old graphic designer hack who is very surprised that his font designs actually sell.

Thanks for your time,
David Bergsland

Font designer, graphic designer, writer
http://bergsland.org
http://bergsland.blogspot.com/

[Member luc…]

They are both ulgy.

[Member dez…]

Quite true, Lucia, I agree. The trouble is, we have no right to prevent production of type designs we dislike. We do have a right to prevent taking someone's intellectual property (good or bad) and using it for profit--however meager that profit. I certainly hope Mr Bergsland requested and received permission from the original designer and foundry before beginning his tracing and copying. Perhaps Mr Bergsland would be better served to create truly original designs. He might then see that a mere 100 hours is nothing when it comes to type design.

ChrisL

[Member pat…]

>Perhaps Mr Bergsland would be better served to create truly original designs. He might then see that a mere 100 hours is nothing when it comes to type design.

Or vintage fonts that have not yet been digitized.

Reworking Papyrus certainly seems to me like an exercise in futility. I can't imagine why one would rework one of the world's most overused fonts in order to USE IT MORE. Yet, that's a personal choice, however strange. Profiting from it... seems a bit sleazy to me.

[Member boa…]

Is it double double indemnity when someone copies a horrible font, makes it worse, sells it, AND has poor taste?

[Member dez…]

It is kind of like stealing someone's farts, cloning them and then charging people to smell them :-)

ChrisL

[Member sol…]

Above, Mr. Bergsland claims Artichoke "has sold some (a few dozen copies)" whereas on his website he advises us: "Be sure to check out the releases of the past two years. They include the most popular fonts I've ever released— Brinar & Artichoke," and elsewhere there, Artichoke is termed "another strong seller" (all emphases mine).

A disconnect? Misleading, perhaps? Well, maybe not: If his "strong seller" has sold "a few dozen copies" only, perhaps the others are by comparison downright dormant. Deservedly so, if that's the case, for in casting a glance over his displayed wares one is hard pressed not to notice there's more than a mere whiff of familiarity to them all. "Derivative" alone won't cut it.

So much the worse for us all — not to mention easily gulled consumers.

ChrisL has it spot on: "Mr Bergsland would be better served to create truly original designs."

[Member csl…]

I do know that in an advanced typography course, one of our assignments were to take two fonts (that we did extensive research on for the first 3 months) and make a hybrid font. This of course was only an exercise, and was in no way meant for us to call this our own design. it was rather to see how letterforms were proportioned to one another, and to come out of it with a new product. This just sounds very similar, just this guy decided to see if he could sell his. But eh, it someone buys it, then they aren't worried about quality let alone design.

courtney

[Member alu…]

"their font guy"

I'm so glad to hear that MyFonts has at least one 'font guy' on staff. ;0)

[Member Jam…]

@Bergsland:

In answer to the original question, the roots are obvious. My hope is that it is an example of the sincerest form of flattery.

Your hope is vain in the extreme. You are not fooling anybody here. What you hope people will see as "imitation" is in fact plagiarism, a knock-off, a rip-off of somebody else's typeface design. Call it what it is.

It comes from a fresh trace and it is modified quite a bit as an exercise in making a font I couldn’t use into one that I now use all the time.

Whether you steal a digital font's outlines directly by importing the font file into Fontlab, or whether you auto-trace a print of the same font, makes no difference to me. I won't claim to speak for how others here see the two methods, but I see both methods as theft and theft only.

Yes, it has sold some (a few dozen copies), but it is certainly no threat to Papyrus.

A paper-thin justification. That it isn't shooting up the starlets or best sellers charts does not justify your plagiarism.

I’m releasing one next week that is a tracing of a printed page of Erasmus, one of Solo’s old display fonts. It too is heavily modified (and it is only part of a new study on making a book font family I can actually use). I really like it and I am making it mine while tearing it apart to try and see why it is so attractive to me.

Your methods of font production are, at a minimum, very questionable. Certainly it cannot be deemed "typeface design". IHacking other people's fonts and calling the resulting violation your own is plagiarism. Your methods of font production amount to the kind of ass-clownery that gives our industry a bad name. I am stopping short of making an ad hominem personal attack on you David, an argument against you as a person. Instead I ridicule your working methods and pour icy cold water on your plagiarized fonts and lack of ethics.

I hope it is not too offensive to you all.

I am disgusted by it. Please remove your Artichoke font from the market and destoy all copies and work files.

It is not a nefarious plot. Myfonts only approved it after they saw my original tracings. It is certainly not an attempt to make money on Chris. It will probably end up in a new display font eventually. Remember, I’m just an old graphic designer hack who is very surprised that his font designs actually sell.

(much laughter!) As if saying that is supposed to redeem you or somehow appease your peers. I'm not moved, not even by a fraction of an em. Remove Artichoke from your website and remove it from Myfonts before several other font makers and I start lobbying John Collins and Laurnece Penney to have it removed from Myfonts for you.

Oh yes, I'll do it too (lobby Myfonts). You can put money of that.

@Darrel: I’m so glad to hear that MyFonts has at least one ’font guy’ on staff. ;0)

I guess you're joking at least a little there. For the record, Myfonts employ several very well-informed and experienced font people. Laurence Penney and John Collins are just two of them.

j a m e s

[Member Wil…]

Personally, I don't understand why MyFonts allowed this. I don't think they should have.

[Member Gor…]

David Bergsland: Shame on you.
MyFonts: Shame on you too.

[Member dez…]

I agree, Bill, I never understood that tracing thing. I can understand in a revival where you go back to a Letterpress printed page of a historic typeface. I don't understand it for a current face designed as digital. What is the point? Certainly, the quality of the outlines is quite bad so it is no improvement over the original. While I don't care for the original Papyrus, at least is is a competent drawing. This Artichoke thing is just crap. This is the kind of thing that can give MyFonts a bad name.

ChrisL

[Member Nic…]

MyFonts follows the letter of the law. As long as there is no "point piracy", it's OK.
If they had to make judgement calls on derivative fonts, they would continually be in contentious situations.

[Member dez…]

I guess you are right, Nick. They would then need a fleet of "Lawyer Guys" and then could not afford a "Font Guy" :-)

ChrisL

[Member alu…]

"I agree, Bill, I never understood that tracing thing. I can understand in a revival where you go back to a Letterpress printed page of a historic typeface."

I have trouble seeing a clear line between the two.

It seems that if one just uses the term 'revival' to begin with, they can save some time fighting those that claim it to be theft.

Granted, in this case, if there were no permissions granted, I'd have to side with this being a lazy remake of a known, current, protected typeface.

But many many fonts have been created from doing just the same...tracing a classic instance of type found in the wild on a sign, in lead, on wood (in fact, I've created fonts that way), etc.

Perhaps that's where the line is drawn...copying a typeface that has already been made into a digital font leans towards theft. Copying a typeface found on a box in an antique store leans towards 'revival'.

[Member fre…]

Dez: It is kind of like stealing someone’s farts, cloning them and then charging people to smell them :-)

G R O S S !

[Member dez…]

Sorry, Fredrik, It was a weak moment. Perhaps not the right image for most folks to care to visualize :-)

ChrisL

[Member twa…]

I would be surprised if every toy shop owner individually tested each toy he or she puts up on sale. This is simply not feasible.

But please be assured that we at MyFonts always review cases immediately whenever there is a complaint (no matter whether the complaint came from the party who claims that their rights have been infringed, or from someone else). Our policy is to remove the font from sales temporarily until the issue is resolved.

However, when it comes to fresh digital versions of typeface designs that some people view as derivative (such as Adobe's Myriad, FontFont's City Street Type, Linotype's Basic Commercial, Monotype's Arial or quite a few faces from the Bitstream library), we employ industry standards, which, well, are not perfect.

I should also stress that in any case, the original rights owner always has the options to follow the conflict resolution path widely accepted in civilized countries, i.e. a court of law.

Best regards,
Adam Twardoch
MyFonts typographic consultant

Ps. Thanks to William Berkson for bringing this thread to our attention.

[Member Si_…]

>a court of law.

That has some problems, as does the more popular "court of public opinion". It would be nice to have third court made up of industry leaders that could give disputed new designs an originality rating.

I'm thinking something modeled after this...

Who would be on the “Brethren Court” and who would be King?

[Member sol…]

"... and who would be King?"

David Berlow, of course — and that's even if we have to draft him!

[Member Ben…]

>Myfonts only approved it after they saw my original tracings

Original tracings? I may not know much about the font industry but I can clearly say that tracing someone else's work is not very original or creative.

>100 hours

This is no time at all for a type designer.

>I’m just an old graphic designer hack who is very surprised that his font designs actually sell

As we all are.

[Member typ…]

Dezcom made me spit coffee all over my screen.

[Member chr…]

I just wanted to point out for the record here that Stephen's reference to the "font guy" thing was referring to Lettering Delights and not MyFonts!

> I followed the links to the LD site....
> When I emailed the company the web person removed them...
> ...and look into the matter with their font guy.

-ChrisL #2, MyFonts Webmaster in full defense mode ;)

[Member Sup…]

After listening to Adams corporate boilerplate I kind of think Mr. Costello’s opinion should matter the most...

Shouldn’t Chris Costello be notified?

Mike Diaz