The great first day of 20BA

[Andreas Stötzner]

This topic was imported from the Typophile platform

This is the first day of the new Unicode release 6.2. Its sole reason is the introduction of the new “Turkish Lira” character.

I personally think this is not one of the very greatest days of Unicode, but anyway.
See what you make of it.

[sardiez]

Will they include the ruble sign some day?

[Si_Daniels]

Do you care to explain the origin of your distaste for this symbol? Did the Turkish kids at school take away your toys? Perhaps a Turkish shop keeper short-changed you during a vacation trip to İzmir? ;-)

A slightly more upbeat appraisal of Unicode 6.2 here... http://blogs.msdn.com/b/michkap/archive/2012/09/27/10353657.aspx

[hrant]

If the Euro isn't diagrammatic in the charts, why is the TL? Oh well.

For reference:
https://typography.guru/forums/topic/100604-forwarding

For the record, even though I'm Armenian (we lost a bit more than some toys) I think this is a Good Thing. I just hope people don't make it look too European.

BTW Simon, why is the bottom part closed here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver-blog...

hhp

[Si_Daniels]

>why is the bottom part closed here:

Could be a jpeg artifact - I can't repro that rendering on my machine. I'll check with Michael.

[hrant]

Oh, you're right - it's just that the lower angled bar is making a connection with the tip of the curl. Better hinting please! :-)

hhp

[Andreas Stötzner]

> Do you care to explain the origin of your distaste for this symbol? Did the Turkish kids at school take away your toys? Perhaps a Turkish shop keeper short-changed you during a vacation trip to İzmir?

Very nice. But hardly a matter of taste.

I did explain my concerns already, in this forum. It’s reflected also here.

[quadibloc]

@Si Daniels:
It's not anti-Turkish to hold the opinion that for the Unicode Consortium to make a new release of Unicode just to include one new currency symbol is in some way unbefitting.

Myself, though, I don't entirely share the opinion: rather, I think there should be some streamlined procedure so that people can add support to new characters in their correct code positions immediately, while being Unicode compliant, but without the appearance of favoritism that this may have given.

However, since that does involve modifying the Unicode standard, it's hard not to call it a new release. Maybe call it 6.1.0.1 instead of 6.2?

The primary user of the Unicode Standard, after all, is not font designers, but the data processing community. They print checks, after all.

[Nick Shinn]

Well, I won’t rush to update my fonts.
Besides, in a few years, won’t Turkey be using the €?

[Si_Daniels]

>I did explain my concerns already, in this forum. It’s reflected also here.

"It is NOT a new character. (!) There is the Lira sign existing at codepoint 20A4"

The same was also true for the new rupee symbol. I was just wondering why the Turkish lira was singled out for criticism.

If and when the euro crumbles I wonder if different European currencies will return to their old symbols or create new ones to differentiate between their pre and post-euro currencies. Before the euro the use of Unicode was rare. Most people were using OS's and apps that relied on code pages - hence the "need" for folks to initially hack-encode the symbol in fonts. You could argue that Unicode's success has contributed to the proliferation of new symbols, and maybe the need to properly support the euro was the turning point?

[hrant]

I think any "populist" character like a currency symbol does need to be "rushed to market" because the potential for damage due to sloppy implementation (like using the diagrammatic representation) is great.

I won’t rush to update my fonts.

Isn't incremental software updates the key to $? :-)

Besides, in a few years, won’t Turkey be using the €?

Yeah. So hurry up. :-)
Seriously: it hasn't looked better than 50% for that to happen for a while now. In fact the implementation of a new currency symbol is a sign of defiance towards Europe.

Simon: the one good thing that can come of the European Union being whittled down is Greece getting a new symbol for the Drachma - the old one was horrid!

hhp

[Nick Cooke]

Besides, in a few years, won’t Turkey be using the €?

Maybe no countries will be using the €.

[Andreas Stötzner]

> The same was also true for the new rupee symbol. I was just wondering why the Turkish lira was singled out for criticism.

Yes, the new Rupee sign is also a tricky case. Well, the horse has left the barn … so what.

> If and when the euro crumbles I wonder if different European currencies will return to their old symbols or create new ones to differentiate between their pre and post-euro currencies …

One never knows. If the UC stakeholders keep proceeding like now, I fear for the standard getting a kind of prisoner of circumstances. The independence from actual political influence is challenged. The encoding principles once heralded fall behind.
It was pure actionism. There was no need at all to ennoble this *design project of national pride* by hastily encoding it as “a character”. We could well have wait for some time to see this project mature. No one expects this char. being available in fonts for the next few months.
If I would want to implement the new Turkish Lira sign into a non-sans font, how on earth am I going to know how the rendering of the sign is meant to be? I’m just guessing: the proud Turks themselves have not the faintest idea. But this question is about nothing less than the very nature of the sign, if there is any nature at all, whatsoever.
We have encoded a silly piece of design simulation. If you take the matter of typographic signage serious, the whole action is a defiance of our trade.

The introduction of the Euro char. was a different story, however.

[oldnick]

Besides, in a few years, won’t Turkey be using the €?

Highly unlikely, and—if anyone has any sense—neither will Greece. Actually, if anyone has any sense, in a few years, there will be only one uniform currency symbol…the Icelandic kronur, a.k.a. Doh!

[Si_Daniels]

>The introduction of the Euro char. was a different story, however.

Hm, I think the only difference is that the euro was a new currency (although some tried to argue the ECU symbol slot could be repurposed), but apart from that it seems exactly the same, including the geometric specification of the design and the community not really knowing how to draw a serif version. Go back and check the archives if you don't believe me.

[quadibloc]

@Si Daniels:
(although some tried to argue the ECU symbol slot could be repurposed)

Had to Google that one. The ECU is 20A0 and the Euro is 12 characters later, so I suppose it's 20AA.

Oops; A is ten; C is twelve, and it indeed is 20AC.

And I see that this: ₠ ... a C with an E pendant on the middle crossbar ... is the ECU symbol.

[Si_Daniels]

Yep, "ECU" was the "European Currency Unit" details here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Currency_Unit

Si

[hrant]

Andreas, maybe it's "national pride" that you dislike?

Or maybe the creation of a new symbol with no chiro-historical precedent?

The independence from actual political influence is challenged.

Nothing is free of political influence. Denying that makes it harder to counteract.

No one expects this char. being available in fonts for the next few months.

?
What about Source Sans*? And I think I've seen at least one more already.

* https://typography.guru/xmodules/typophile/files/SourceSans_TL_4426.gif

how on earth am I going to know how the rendering of the sign is meant to be?

"Know"? "Meant to be"? Did you just arrive on this planet? :-)
You design it, to the best of your ability.

And you don't have to be a Turk to design this thing.

the proud Turks themselves have not the faintest idea.

How do you know that?

hhp

[Andreas Stötzner]

> Andreas, maybe it's "national pride" that you dislike?
No, on the contrary.

> You design it, to the best of your ability.
You clearly know that this is not the point.

[hrant]

I think I do know the point (and being Sure is never it) at least for me. But if you'd like to say what the point is for you, go ahead.

hhp