Picture of letterpress Souvenir

[PublishingMojo]

@ John, I agree completely, Comic Sans is a typeface. The beauty of typefaces is that there's an almost infinite range of design possibilities. The only thing they have in common is that they're adapted to a process that automates the replication of letters.

I'm not a fan of Comic Sans, but there are places where it's the perfect choice. There are even situations where Souvenir is the perfect choice. Here's one:

[Karl Stange]

but there are places where it's the perfect choice.

Just because it is well established or even infamous does not mean that it is perfect. I like Spam but there is nothing about the packaging that strikes me as appealing.

[oldnick]

Actually, there are a lot of similarities—at least tonally—between Souvenir and Oz Cooper’s original design for his eponymous face. Bitstream’s revival of Cooper Light/Medium really bastardized the typeface, IMHO. In any event, I find both Souvenir and Cooper to be excellent text faces when you want to convey a warm and inviting message…

[Nick Shinn]

Karl, I’m thinking Spam needs to diversify.
Organic, Tofam, and Classic.

[Renaissance Man]

Karl, I think the Spam packaging is more appealing than the contents.

Nick, I agree. I always thought of Souvenir as the "comfort food" of fonts. How or in what ways did "Bitstream’s revival of Cooper Light/Medium really bastardized the typeface"?

[hrant]

As I once called it (on Typo-L) Souvenir is the Golden Retriever of the font world. Big, cute, stupid, lovable (by people who don't know what a dog is supposed to be).

hhp

[oldnick]

Steve,

If you saw the original cuts from Barnhart Brothers and Spindler’s Catalog #25 for Cooper, you’d see what I mean: Cooper’s original letterforms were delightfully quirky, and far more suggestive of hand-lettering that Bitstream’s homogenized outlines.

[HVB]

NickC - Wordshape claims to have used that catalog to create their 2011 version of Cooper Oldstyle and Cooper Text. I haven't tried to compare this with URW's 1999 "Cooper Old Style".

- Herb

[John Hudson]

would you explain me why Souvenir is not good?

'Great' was the term Nick used, perhaps not entirely seriously.

I find Souvenir a poorly coordinated mix of mostly quite dull letterforms combined with a handful of eccentric letters. The only thing they have in common is blobby serifs. In this regard -- internal consistency of the design, successful application of an idea across the full range of characters --, Comic Sans is a superior piece of work.

[Nick Shinn]

Yes, I was entirely serious.

Some of the letterforms are quite novel, but many follow an established Art Nouveau pattern; overall they are well matched and fit nicely.
The theme of bowed diagonals is consistently applied, with the occasional exception, to produce full counters, and that theme is continued in letters such as /a, /e and /g.

The bowed diagonals are echoed in the triangular bowls of /B, /P and /R in a manner that is used in a genre of Art Nouveau types.
The full counters work with the small serifs in the tight fit, to drive white space inside letters, not between, for a controlled and individual text colour. The narrowness of /f and /t also speak to this colour.

The capitals are pretty much the same width—this too is a consistent theme.
The /v and /y do not share the same shape, but that would be simplistic consistency if they were, whereas here the principle that is adhered to is “how far can this letter be bent/opened up?”—and in that respect, the /y references other /y’s that follow the “u” construction.

[oldnick]

@HVB—

Wordshape’s interpretation is a lot closer to Cooper’s original cuts, although it’s hard to tell, given the vagaries of font rendering in different browsers. What is difficult to capture in a digital font formats are the variations in letterform depending on point size that Cooper employed. Sometimes, “new” is not necessarily “improved”…

[Renaissance Man]

John Hudson: "Comic Sans is a superior piece of work" [compared to Souvenir].

Wow! Really? That says more about you, John, than it does about Souvenir.

[piccic]

I think my comment was enough clear, and quadibloc understood in general what I meant.
I do not feel at ease with Comic Sans simply because it is not "designed", neither by construction nor by lettering standards. I mean, with digital type design you can turn any set of letters into typeface format, but this does not mean Comic Sans is a typeface for the lettering of comic books. As quadibloc already explained, lettering for comic books is usually detailed, accurately crafted. Comic Sans was designed to work onscreen, and it does his work, but let’s not call it what is not. Namely, what is an "handwitten" face? Just use handwriting.

Maybe my eyes are not yet trained enough, but I really cannot see all the problems in Souvenir, which I consider a thoroughly accomplished type design. I used to hate most of the typefaces of the turn of the century which got "revived" in the 1960s but now I see them in a more correct light.
Honestly, John, I can’t see all the "poor cordination", and Nick (Shinn) has already replied in a way better way than I could have possibly done myself. I generally go by eye, and Souvenir is harmonic, no matter if the forms are more or less decorative, or straying from "established model". Those are not, strictly speaking, the only parameters which determine an inherent quality of a typeface.

[piccic]

@oldnick and HVB: Ian Lynam is really a super-fan of Oz Cooper, and I think he did a remarkable work. He gave me the typefaces when he released it, but I did not use them. I am pretty sure, however, he choose a point size and developed the typeface taking account of the proper spacing for that size. Then, he may or may not decide to design other sizes, but I seem to get his digitization is pretty accurate.

[William Berkson]

Souvenir is Benton's reworking of an earlier German face, Schelter Antiqua. The typowiki article on Souvenir tells the story, with a link to an example of the italic of Schelter Antiqua, which is indeed more Art Nouveau style, as Nick notes.

I am on Claudio's side on this one about it being well designed. I would say, though, that the caps are more successful than the lower case. Signs using its all caps are not cloying, whereas those using the lower case tend to be.

[quadibloc]

@Renaissance Man:
Wow! Really? That says more about you, John, than it does about Souvenir.

Actually, though, you forgot his very important qualification: "In this regard".

The capitals and lower-case of Souvenir, he claims, were not well-coordinated. Comic Sans does not have that particular fault. It may be a piece of garbage aesthetically, but it's unified, harmonious, and consistent garbage.

It doesn't make John Hudson a bad person to say that Comic Sans is, therefore, superior to Souvenir in respect of this particular aspect of polish, even if in general Comic Sans is a piece of useless garbage and Souvenir is a slightly flawed but still highly useful and beautiful typeface.

He was just expressing a truth that was, unfortunately, liable to being misconstrued.

[Té Rowan]

@quadibloc – It was bound to happen that somebody would rip something out of context. It's one of these Universal Rules, tha noo...

Personally, I rather like Souvenir. It leaves me thinking of ETI (Electronics Today International) and wanting to build a co-processor card for my Speccy.

[piccic]

Well, no typeface is "perfect" but it is not a mere matter "taste" to judge if an alphabet is well drawn and accomplished. I understand better John’s comments but I still think it is nonsense to compare a properly designed typeface for print to Comic Sans. Which happens to be used in print, but remains a collection of casual handwritten letterforms, and I honestly miss its appeal as a typeface. It remains a generic informal set of handwritten letters, to my eyes.

Thanks to quadibloc which seems to have a thorough eye in considering all aspects… :-)

Now, back to my topic: William, many thanks, that’s great. But I still can’t find good printed examples of the original Souvenir. And about the two german typefaces which influenced it: wow, the italic of Schelter-Antiqua is great. Do you know where more examples can be found, and of Tauchnitz-Antiqua as well?

[piccic]

P.S. Of course I checked the links provided by Herb, but the image quality is not so good. Any other source?