Apple Watch’s San Francisco

[Cohnishere]

I'm the furthest thing on this site from representing the typographic community, but I quite like it. I hate it when type designers and the like argue over typefaces that all look the same as Helvetica, but the differences here are in all the right places in my opinion. It's a very pleasant-looking cross between geometric faces and neo-grotesques.

[hrant]

BTW it's funny how certain people accuse Android of ripping off FF DIN, without even bothering to learn where that comes from.

hhp

[dberlowgone]

This kind of thing is clearly not graspable by all, but I see the idea of internationalizing Latin without much notice. One could also call it an Asianization of Latin. The monolining of Latin for low resolution just about finished bouncing out to the ends of Unicode, for better and worse, and now the monowidth thing of kanji is reflecting onto Latin UI design.

So, while 'everybody' is reaching just about the same lowest common, international, cross platform, device independent, type design solution, denominator— yawn deceptively;), another whole totally related thing is that this kind of simple typographic identity requires a range of weights and size masters, to accomplish. Telling to anyone who wants to accurately present a typographic identity on a single device, much less for those seeking accurate multidevice multi-font family typographic identities.

[Nick Shinn]

Even with a range of weights, it is difficult to design complex, hierarchical layouts, which have traditionally benefited from contrast between sans and serif.

The classic mid-century modern identity, using one typeface, also relied heavily on asymmetric white space to differentiate layout elements, which is not always available.

Futura has persisted, and its descendants Avenir and Gotham/Proxima, so I don’t see an overwhelming hegemony for Lowest Common Denominator typefaces. And with higher resolutions making screen typography more like traditional print, I would imagine that things will become less “Asianized” in the future.

Still, perhaps the vogue for all-cap headings is another symptom of Asianization, if not Americanization (3rd Grade English, according to Conan).

[Cohnishere]

I have never seen a single typeface whose Chinese characters bore any resemblance of character at all to its Roman letters, because the two bear no/little common ground historically or linguistically. In SimSun for instance, while said characters and letters bear comparable weights and serifs (if the Chinese call them that), because the two systems function differently, a reader wouldn't generally draw the comparison. Therefore I would draw the conclusion that there is no benefit to the reader or appearance of design cohesion whatsoever to designing typefaces with asian and western capabilities. However in forcing Roman letters to conform to Chinese formatting, the letter 'i' becomes barely comparable to 'm'.

On the other hand, in the past several decades the Chinese language has been compromised far more brutally by Roman standards, and while even bold Chinese text doesn't carry the same significance as bold Roman, italicised Chinese characters would be greatly insulting, which could possibly be a future consequence of 'Asianisation'.

[hrant]

Asianization of Latin.

Riiight.

Henry: agreed.

hhp

[GrubStreet]

the same lowest common, international, cross platform, device independent, type design solution, denominator— yawn deceptively;)

Apple is definitely doing something on the cross-language typesetting aspect. First they’ve replaced most of the website typefaces with PingHei (CN, by Sinotype) and Apple TP (JP, by Type Project). And now this... I think they’ve definitely thought about multilingual typography.

Increasingly confining latin letterforms to the grid is one thing to harmonize Latin and CJK scripts, but I think it’s far more than that. There’s already a consciousness about pairing typefaces based on their personalities and formal qualities, and I think it’s also possible to explore their pasts and work from the origin ground up (also a kind of denominator?), i.e. examining calligraphic reminiscence or history of how a particular typeface was achieved.

[hrant]

I think they’ve definitely thought about multilingual typography.

Which makes sense, considering emerging markets. What worries me is that properly harmonious multi-script fonts are arguably the hardest thing in type design, and Apple's recent efforts (especially in contrast to the things MS has been commissioning) don't make me think they can pull it off.

hhp

[GrubStreet]

properly harmonious multi-script fonts are arguably the hardest thing in type design

Definitely true. One have to have deep knowledge in both fields to pull this stuff off. But no, I don’t think they’re inept in this. They’ve got the right partners – On the CN side, Sinotype has been a long time partner with Apple (starting from Snow Leopard’s Heiti SC/TC) and also an influential foundry in China; on the JP side, Apple has Dainippon Screens (reliable foundry whose Hiragino Sans GB has been unanimously praised) and AXIS, whom I think is a new but promising partner. I don’t know for the Korean side, but in both CN and JP, Apple’s got some of the best people in this industry.

P.S. I know Dainippon Screens and AXIS are great foundries, but I wonder why Apple hasn’t cooperated with Morisawa...

[hrant]

Morisawa is hooked up with Adobe.

I'm not familiar with all the foundries you mention, but expertise in one script is weakly correlated with proper harmonization of multiple scripts; in fact experts in a script can be stubborn when it comes to adapting... Most "contemporary" multi-script fonts typically take a textbook Latin design (like the Frutiger genre) and cosmetically adapt a non-Latin script to it, sometimes riding roughshod over the requirements of the script. Frankly MS has done a much better job in this respect, as has Adobe.

hhp

[GrubStreet]

Oh yeah almost forgot that...

That’s exactly my point. Harmony between CJK and Latin is stuck at exactly where you mentioned – say, pick a Frutiger and attach Gothic to it, or pick a Garalde and then attach Mincho. That’s why I say in the above post that we need to go deeper.

[JamesM]

> multilingual typography

China is a huge market. The iPhone 6 pre-orders in China were roughly double those in the U.S.

[dberlowgone]

Nick: "so I don’t see an overwhelming hegemony for Lowest Common Denominator typefaces. "

Then I'd classify you as legally blind. Find another job?

"I'm not familiar with all the foundries you mention..."

What here are you familiar with. There will be millions of these watches in a few months, and they will most likely contain this font, and the brand will grow and the font will spread. Then people will copy it and make huge signs to put in front of your house. It will come and eat up your xp and then your cat. That is how important you are to this font, and to Apple's plan for world domination through price.

"That’s why I say in the above post that we need to go deeper."

I think it's not possible, but do try;) Nick, Hrant and Henry don't have a lot of experience with UI work, small devices or international issues, but good luck.

[GrubStreet]

I think it's not possible, but do try;)

Just out of curiosity, Mr Berlow, why do you think it’s impossible to go deeper than typeface pairing?

[hrant]

When have I said that livestock don't buy crap? When have I said that I'm important to Apple? Mainly I'm simply presenting two thought-out opinions based on my own observations and experience since at least the early 80s:
1: People without a single multi-cultural bone in their body shouldn't be trusted to deeply address multi-script type design. Compared to maybe a hundred people I know –and yes, including myself– you really have little clue beyond Latin. And Apple has some holes in that respect as well – just look at the Armenian that comes with OSX!
2: No matter how many devices this new San Francisco typeface gets shipped on, the logic pointing to its inadvisable proximity to its main competitor's core typeface would remain. It's simply not OK for somebody to look at an Apple Watch and think –even for an instant– that Samsung made it. This situation was entirely avoidable, but I think Apple has become more imitative than many people realize.

As before, I think your recurring core problem here is that any hint of criticism of Apple (just a few months ago you were fervently defending Helvetica as a great choice for UI...) results in an arrogant lashing out, even to the point of ignoring the obvious. You give zero credit for anything to anybody who disagrees with you on anything, no matter how many years they're wrestled with something you've never thought cost-effective to bother with.

hhp

[Igor Freiberger]

I saw improvements on script and language support from OS 10.8 to 10.10, but there are still problems even with Latin and Cyrillic support. A number of characters for expanded Unicode blocks are absent, while others do use a poor design choice. Enhancement on typographic matters seems to be always slow.

[Nick Shinn]

I don’t expect the vogue for sans serifs to last forever.
I see it as very much associated with the era of low-res screens.
High-res screens should prompt designers to use more serif types, emulating the capabilities of print. That’s already happening in many apps.

The Apple watchface layouts have been designed from the outside, matching the simplicity and modernity of the hardware, and using the corporate UI style. But there are typographic means other than the mid-century modern International Style, to present information on such devices.

[Albert Jan Pool]

Now that’s what I’d call a great and legible design, Nick. Apple could probably charge twice as much for the Watch if they’d take your typographic design … x-height could be 1 pixel large I guess. That would probably allow the loops of the italic e not to smear.

[hrant]

Nick, agreed.

Serif typography is especially relevant since an expensive watch is about high fashion (and yes, not legibility). In fact this clearly applies to Apple as a whole, since they've been hiring high-profile execs from the fashion world lately.

One technical issue however is that serif type doesn't mesh as well with Apple's anti-hinting philosophy.

hhp

[JamesM]

My guess is that just getting the watch out the door is a huge project, so initially they're keeping it simple with one font. Software updates later may offer font choices.

This also makes it easier for developers, most of whom don't have an actual watch for testing purposes.

Regarding serif fonts, they are easier to read for large amounts of text, not sure if it makes much difference for the tiny amount of text on the watch (other than personal preferences).

[quadibloc]

@hrant:
BTW it's funny how certain people accuse Android of ripping off FF DIN, without even bothering to learn where that comes from.

To me, DIN means Deutsches Institut für Normung; they specified a style of lettering for use in drafting. (The Russians tended to use this style of lettering as well; in the U.S., Keuffel & Esser's Leroy lettering guides were more influential - being a richer country, such luxuries were more affordable, and hand lettering was looked down on in drafting.) That it was FontFont that made a font called DIN based on this lettering style is, to me at least, secondary.

While San Francisco isn't similar enough to DIN to be called a copy, it comes closer to DIN than it does to several of the other typefaces of which it has been accused of being a copy.

@Nick Shinn:
But there are typographic means other than the mid-century modern International Style, to present information on such devices.

Looking at information presented on the high-resolution screen of my smartphone, I can well believe that it is not strictly necessary to use a sans-serif typeface in order to maintain the illusion of infinite-resolution print.

For branding reasons, though, no doubt designers at both Google and Apple want their devices to fairly shout Modernity!, and for that, a sans-serif face is more appropriate.

As to your illustration, however, the use of narrow italics, a change of font to upper-case/small capitals instead of boldface, a typeface with a small x-height, and oldstyle figures... represents a direction in which they will not go for good reason.

If they use a serif face, it would be something more like, say, Corona.

As to whether "the vogue for sans serifs" will "last forever" - well, literally, the Latin alphabet will not last forever. Sans-serif, though, is a simple option, whereas there are many different styles of serif. Bracketed serifs, the mainstay of serif type, are more likely to disappear from use than sans-serif.

However, just as Bell Gothic was useful in letting I, 1, and l be distinguishable, a more reasonable alternative they might consider, if one needs a monoline face to disguise resolution limits, would be an Egyptian like Memphis or Stymie.

As for the Asianization of Latin script - San Francisco is not a typewriter-like monospace font, and so I don't immediately see how that could be a factor here, at least in a simple and direct manner.

[JamesM]

A quick check of expensive watches via Google shows that some (but not all) use sans serif fonts.

The Rolex below (over $10,000 at Amazon.com) uses a considerable amount of sans serif.

[hrant]

Quantity likes sans, while quality՝ serif.

hhp

[dberlowgone]

"– you really have little clue beyond Latin. [] – just look at the Armenian that comes with OS X!"

I know, so why send me to look!? The way I see Armenian, all the "good" stuff appears designed for an auto body repair shop, and all the "bad" stuff looks like it was designed by the auto body repair shop.

"Mr Berlow, why do you think it’s impossible to go deeper than typeface pairing?"

Well, I’ll be killing two birds with one stone, which won’t sit well. There’s this IP running loose, saying every light font in the universe is: “Anorexic!”, (or even more entertainingly, Apple Computer’s way of promoting anorexia). Laughable, I know — I do constantly. That same, loose-running IP says: “The Latin Script” killed the world’s other scripts, including his beloved auto body shop script.

But if you are concerned about UI font design and specification, as oppposed to the typical fear and anger of the future, do this simple math, you’ll see neither of those are really true and/or unavoidable: The average Latin word is 5 glyphs, the average Latin glyph has 2 strokes (conservatively), for an average of 10 strokes per Latin word. The average Latin stroke in a Latin readability font is 1/10th of the em, and... the average Latin word has as much space horizontally, as it takes, to present that word.

The average Chinese glyph is two words and has as much space horizontally as all other Chinese glyphs. Two words with a conservative Latin stroke count, is already 20 Chinese glyph strokes (not at all uncommon among Chinese glyphs). If one is lucky ;) 1/2 half of those average average average Chinese glyph strokes are vertical and 1/2 horizontal. But if the Chinese design has the same weight as a readable Latin, the em is full of strokes in both directions, with 0 white space. Nothing is too important to leave out entirely, so something’s got to give, and that is the ideal reading weight of the Latin.

This is all just rule of thumb, unless one has fonts fully dictionaried with a 1:1 contour to stroke ratio, and python, it’s hard to be more precise, (and I have a lot of NDAs). But anyone with a brain can tell you for sure, even before seeing Chinese on the watch, Some of Apple’s Latin system fonts are lighter than Latin’s ideal weight. And this little talk is only about strokes and space, leaving out the other 6 parts of the universal mantra from nothing (space), to ideas (glyph or string of glyphs), which is also full of compromises by each script.

It is a very small world we are looking at here. So, no room yet for serifs, hinting, script wars, or complete residence, i.e. “these fonts are going places” was not a fan reaction?, it was a technical specification, duh.;)

[hrant]

all the "good" stuff appears designed for an auto body repair shop

That's just evidence of your blindness. But you can't admit any failing; for example not that an Armenian typeface delivered to a client a few years ago had a couple of entirely defective letters, even though the client was charged an arm and a leg. I know people who do better work for free.

Latinization is a real problem, and I'm not remotely the only one saying it. Only cultural chauvinism (perhaps stemming from not having a single cultural, nevermind multi-cultural, bone in one's body) prevents the admission of that. This is something I was sad to realize many years ago, when reading a talk synopsis, which I will one day dig up. It was basically an ineloquent version of the following by Morison:

"The Roman alphabet is not merely in possession, but it is in possession by right of conquest. The conquest was not made possible, or even expedited, by external authority; the victory of the Roman letter was due to its inherent flexibility and rationalism."

Will Latin one day start shifting to look more like Chinese? That's entirely plausible, considering the world's probable economic future. But there is no evidence at all that it has already started down that path. And anyway, for the short term, instead of using voodoo math as blinders to actual design, come to Granshan in July to open your eyes to the broader world of type.

hhp