Ornate Victorian and faux Chinese fusion font from a Monotype (but not Monotype) matrix

[SchroDingerzat]

Hello everyone, first post and my glorious evolution from a lurker to a typer.

So a bit about this font. This came from a Monotype matrix (but from examining the Monotype books we don't believe it is a Monotype font), also I don't think this has ever been digitised. I have asked on other channels and no one seems to know what it is, other then noting the interesting fusion of ornate Victorian and faux Chinese elements.

Any information on this font would be brilliant.

[George Thomas]

The bolder caps-only font is Elongated Latin aka Condensed Latin aka Latin Bold Condensed aka Latin Extra Condensed, and has been digitized by several sources. Your matrices should have a number, or maybe several numbers, on them which could help to identify both faces more specifically. Also, what are the point sizes?

The rest of the type is a different font completely and will take further research.

[George Thomas]

OK, after a bit more research I find in the Miller & Richard specimen of 1918 a font named Oceanic which is remarkably similar to the fancy one in the above image -- except it is bolder and does not have all the fancier capitals.

Perhaps M&R had a lighter weight at some point, or another foundry did a fancier version which was lighter. No 20th-century American foundry copied the face.

I have very few English or Scottish specimen resources, but at least now you have a date range of about 1910-1925 to work with. I think when it is found it will be from one of those two countries.

BTW, that particular style of type is classified as Art Nouveau rather than Victorian.

[SchroDingerzat]

That is some brilliant information George, thank you. As for the serial number, I will need to get back to you on that. It belongs to another volunteer at a local printing museum I work at, who asked me to ask around on his behalf.

[SchroDingerzat]

Thought I would post an update. Thanks to David Wakefield we have identified the font. It is MIKADO originally from the Flinsch foundry (1888).

[George Thomas]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Look at the details in the cap /W and /M. Mikado is bolder than the sample you show, much like the specimen of Oceanic I found. Also, the lc /e and the number /9 are different. There are many more differences too.

Can you post a photo of one of the mats this was proofed from?

[SchroDingerzat]

Hi George, I am waiting for the other volunteer to reply to me (I have asked him for the serial number and the picture of the matrix). Also now you mention it certain characters are far fancier in the original proof then the same characters in Mikado.... Though there are definite similarities. Can you post the picture of Oceanic you found? I could not find a picture of it myself.

 

[George Thomas]

This is the full page from the 1918 M&R specimen (reduced about 50% and cropped). From fontsinuse.com I found this information about the two specimens we found:

"Released in 1887 by Miller & Richard. [Reichardt] Renamed Oceanic by 1921.

Sold by Flinsch as Mikado (1890) and Fette Mikado (before 1902), by Brendler as Yum-Yum and by Amsterdam as Japansche Fantasie."

I didn't check my pre-1900 resources after I found the M&R specimen, but now that we have an earlier date I will, when time permits.

The answer is out there...somewhere.

 

[David Wakefield]

Just to clear up on the confusion of this identification. The fount is Mikado, which was developed as a pseudo-Japanese design by Schriftgiesserei Flinsch in Frankfurt, through the later part of 1888-89. Probably named after the successful Gilbert & Sullivan comic opera The Mikado of 1885. It was a reflection of the fashion of its time after Perry opened up Japan to the west during the middle of the century. It was imported to the UK through the energetic agency of Frederic Wesselhoeft in the early months of 1890. Some success led to an expanded version before the oriental craze waned. Minor foundries electrotyped it under the same name shortly after its introduction. The Brendler Yum-Yum was obviously taken from one of the characters (a sister) in the opera. 

    

[George Thomas]

Thank you David for the answer and the correct photo. The one previously posted showing Fette Mikado is obviously not the same font. Mystery solved.

[SchroDingerzat]

Yeah that was my mistake, as that was the best image I could find.

Thank you both for your effort.

[George Thomas]

Are the original mats in a private collection? If so, I'm sure the collector realizes the value of them. They need to be preserved. We don't need what happened to much of the ATF matrice library happening again.

[SchroDingerzat]

Yes they are in his private collection, though I don't think he knows their value as prior to this he had no knowledge of what font it was. I will talk to him about it next time I see him.

[SchroDingerzat]

I will also mention that I have not personally seen the mats. So I don't know their condition.

[George Thomas]

Is there a chance he might loan them out so they can be photographed? When digitizing old metal fonts I typically use either a microscope or digital camera to do macro photography to preserve all the details. I can probably find time to digitize this one if he wants it done. I don't think it has been done previously.

[SchroDingerzat]

Sorry George for the long reply. I have not been able to catch up with him yet, but I will float the idea with him.

On another note, one weight of Mikado has been done I believe by Peter Wigel http://www.peter-wiegel.de/ . But I think this could probably be improved.

[George Thomas]

Thanks for the response; do keep my request in mind.

Wiegel's version is the less interesting bolder version, and I agree it has room for improvement. He has an interesting array of fonts but I think I can detect some that were autotraced, not a good sign.

[SchroDingerzat]

Definitely will ask him and I hope he will be happy with the idea. As I myself have become quite interested in this font, especially as there is so little like it. I have started to retrain myself in type design, and would love the chance to try and add new characters to this font and expand it (the various differences between these various versions could make great alternate characters), if you don't mind me assisting you that is.

[George Thomas]

We are all in for a little bit of retraining with the announcement of OpenType 1.8 Font Variations technology. Even though the root of it was available in the early 90s it didn't gain wide acceptance so got put away until today. I believe this time it will become accepted.

You're right about the possibilities with the two versions of Mikado. Although the commercial value isn't that great today, it is still worth doing. I'm a big fan of revivals from early metal.

[Ralf Herrmann]

(I moved this in the Talk forum, since it has become a discussion, rather than just a font ID request and the ID forum with its non-chronological sorting did mess up the discussion.)

[Riccardo Sartori]

On 20/9/2016 at 6:07 PM, Ralf Herrmann said:

the ID forum with its non-chronological sorting did mess up the discussion.

Something that bothered me since it’s introduction.

Perhaps there’s a way to highlight/promote the right answer without disrupting the hierarchy of the thread (which is often interesting itself and/or offers context to the answer).

[SchroDingerzat]

Hi George, I have some bad news and good news for you. Good news I have the font and he is happy for you to scan it (depending on where you are though, as if it was outside the UK he would want it tracked and recorded and returned after). The bad news is that I misinterpreted him originally, the font is in the leads rather then the original brass matrix (which he does not know the location of, as he obtained these leads from a departed friend quite a few years ago and though he is sure of it's origins it is likely that this original was lost a long time ago). So I hope you can still use the leads (though what is in that original image is what there is, so it is possible we are missing some characters).

David is it possible you could help us fill in the gaps?

 

 

[David Wakefield]

Hi all.  I have a complete fount in 48/60 point, which, of course may not include every character that was originally cut by Flinsch, especially the accented sorts, etc, which weren't sold in the imported scheme. I will check through my sources - the actual fount, and my Flinsch/Wesselhoeft specimen books to see if any additional characters reveal themselves? The pound sterling sign is included in my fount. I will get back in due course.   David

[George Thomas]

That is good news as the lead type will work just fine. I would not need the entire font, just one of each character, hopefully the least-worn of each letter. Damaged letters are usually OK if they can be reconstructed from a specimen page.

I am in the USA so shipping only one of each letter will save hugely on shipping costs too. I'm sending each of you a private direct mail with the information.

[jch02140]

Just found this topic throught the Typography digest email I subscribed.

I would be interested in getting both version of the fonts when they are digitized. Do keep me posted?

 

 

Edited October 18, 2016 by jch02140