Learning handwriting

[hrant]

Actually I didn't mean to over-emphasize digital creation. Letterforms that are made by arranging pebbles on a beach for example can be superior to handwriting in certain ways. The point isn't to find some ideal method, but to see the flaws in every method, and not fetishize any of them. Especially useful is seeing the flaws in a method that oppressively crushes out everything else.

Developing fine motors skills can be done without creating and fostering misleading illusions of functionality; teaching kids to make letters by expanding skeletons without immediately warning them that when it comes to reading skeletons are irrelevant is a disservice to society. And cognitive development need not be impeded by cozy anachronisms - there are many ways to get kids (and adults) to think without perpetuating lies.

BTW, I don't disdain handwriting. I just think it's headed the way of cuneiform writing. One thing I do disdain however is ideological lassitude.

> How would you do this Hrant?

You might want to get a copy of "Graphic Design & Reading" (G Swanson, ed.) where my "Improving the Tool" essay can be found. The essay was also published (in English and Spanish) in an issue of tipoGrafica.

hhp

[typerror]

Is it online Hrant?

English or Spanish is fine.

Michael

[enne_son]

Hrant, if you were to strike out all your belittling insinuations and derogatory hyperbole there would be little left of your critique. Is the ball in my court to produce the falsifying evidence you can't or won't supply?

The consequent of my claims above is not that type design imitate writing. Hrant knows that's not what I think. Hrant knows that I'm an advocate of systematic and well-motivated norm-violation when it comes to contrast-styling in type design. I'm also open to role-architectural exploration or reconfiguration in letter-form construction to enhance divergence [edited] or when the mapping problems of the current system become too complex. Hrant and I might have different ideas of where the tipping point might lie. Maybe eventually Hangul will fill the breech after the decline of the west has continued apace. Until then, I don't really see much prospect for a wholesale retranscription from within.

The consequent of my claim above is that there are strong personal developmental and cultural historical reasons to continue / reinvigorate writing.

I challenge Hrant to show that my analysis of Legato fails to illuminate what is happening in form-analytical terms in Legato. My analysis can be found in illustrated form in the thread: What's so unique about Legato.

[William Berkson]

An interesting question here is whether learning to form letters proficiently by hand is a helpful step to word recognition and reading. I don't know the literature on this, but I'm supposing it exists.

[PublishingMojo]

If you live in a society that communicates with visual symbols, you need to learn how to make those symbols. Without electricity.
But if you expect people to pay you good money for work you call graphic design or typography, you need to learn more than that. You need to learn to feel the shapes of letters the way a pianist feels the keys, the way a pitcher feels the ball. You don't learn that by looking at letters, you learn it by drawing letters.
physical dexterity leads to mental dexterity.

[hrant]

> ... there would be little left of your critique.

You're right.
I've done all I can in the past*, and I dislike repetition - I value the new; I do not celebrate the past, I build a better future (well, I try). My main motivation these days is to make sure people, especially newbies, know there are people who think that at least some of the arguments you (plural) make are hogwash. Planting this doubt is not useless - it makes people think, instead of blindly following.

* Although Typophile's search is largely useless, Google does a fine job - just append "hhp" on an appropriate set of terms.

> Is the ball in my court

I'm not playing a game; you're not my adversary.

> I don’t really see much prospect for a
> wholesale retranscription from within.

I'm not sure what you mean by "retranscription". But I certainly see an opportunity to ween people off chirography. At least people who have the luxury to be undecided; too many people are too old (ideologically). And you see an opportunity for what, reviving handwriting? Nauseating. Hey, why not revive cuneiform while you're at it?! And what would you like to see revived in the field of music, banging clubs on skulls? That must make such a uniquely human sound...

> I challenge Hrant to show that my analysis of Legato fails to
> illuminate what is happening in form-analytical terms in Legato.

No, it's OK... I haven't read much of that other thread, and anyway it doesn't even matter what Legato does - it's just an instance. What matters is the concept of what we should be doing.

I just want people to know that resistance -passionate, furious resistance- exists; that there are people who can see that the emperor has become senile, and think it's important to point that out.

hhp

[enne_son]

"But I certainly see an opportunity to ween people off chirography. At least people who have the luxury to be undecided; too many people are too old (ideologically)." [Hrant]

Let me repeat: "The consequent of my claims above is not that type design imitate writing."

You try to ban using the pen as a reference axis in handling or gauging type from type talk. Any time you see a reference to handwriting you smell a senile chirographic rat. I try to say the rat's not in my equation.

I only think, in the context of this thread, abandoning handwriting writing is cultural suicide. Type-cultural suicide as well.

I try to make people think as well.

My concept of what we should be doing in type design is that, at least in the text-type domain, we should be exploring feature manipulation / norm-violations that promote or enhance rapid automatic visual wordform resolution in reading.

[hrant]

> The consequent of my claims above is
> not that type design imitate writing.

We use "imitate" differently.

> I try to say the rat’s not in my equation.

But its pelt keeps you warm.

> abandoning handwriting writing is cultural suicide.

A convenient alarmism. It will happen, but not
so abruptly. However, its wholesale abandonment
is indeed overdue in the field of text face design.

Culture changes. Diseased bits hopefully fall off.

> we should be exploring ...

As long as we make sure not to leave the Old Continent eh?
Coast-hugging is dead; we need our astrolabe.

hhp

[Queneau]

When children are young (like my niece) its not a matter of forcing the alfabet into them. They WANT to learn, they imitate letters even if they don't know their meaning yet. The get it wrong the first time, but quickly learn to get better. And the speed at which they learn and absorb things is amazing! So not learning handwriting to me is definately wrong! It's they drilling and the testing that's the problem, not the handwriting. Each kid has it's own pace to learn things, and are better in some things or worse in others. This should be taken into account when teaching them. They aren't harddrives, for chrissakes!

I cannot prove anything but I think it is essential to learn proper handwriting, because it trains the brain in a unique way (just like drawing does in it's own way). It's not just a matter of being able to decipher glyphs on a screen. Typing is also different than writing, not better or worse but different. I have nothing against teaching kids with modern tools, but this doesn't disqualify old methods. It's not a case of either/or but of and/and.

cheerio Queneau

[nancy sharon collins]

hi guys,

this has gotten way to contentious for me but i can't help myself.

does anyone know where and what the research is on the relationship between drawing, brain function and development? i know it exists but i don't know where. i don't think its in gardner's work but if someone could direct me it would be appreciated.

an abstract expressionist painter friend and i often discuss the relationship between gestural drawing and thinking. he draws and paints and i write cursive with pencils and pens. i do this in addition to spending too much time key stroking and pushing pixels around on the computer.

i flunked spelling in elementary school and my handwriting was illegible until it became my choice to write longhand. until recently i hated both of these disciplines because i sucked at performing them, but mastering them expands my capabilities, stretches my brain and makes my communication skills more complex, useful and dynamic.

i know from personal experience that the product of my writing is different when i am on the computer and when i write a letter by hand. its this gestural thing and also that, although marks made directly on paper are not immutable, correcting, changing or altering them takes a lot more effort than in the computer. so, i think, the brain performs a different kind of editing in each mode. and both have practical applications in an increasingly digital age.

[Queneau]

Oh... And what if you've only learned typing and the power fails, the computer crashed, the battery is dead etc. Technology is good, but it also has its limitations and dangers. One being a strong dependency on electricity, which is fine when it works, but what if it doesn't. And are kids supposed to always carry around microcomputers/keyboards to memorize stuff or write things down... I dunno... It's fine when it's one of the options available, but if it's the only one, it could get scary: The dyke breaks, everythings flooded, the powers out and you laptop is full of water, you sit there with a piece of cardboard and a pen, but you just don't know how to form the letters HELP without a proper QWERTY keyboard and a flatscreen.... :-O

Sorry to spoil the fun with my anti-technological ramblings... It's just on my mind that's all...

cheerio Queneau

[nina]

"the product of my writing is different when i am on the computer and when i write a letter by hand."
Sure, tools influence thinking. I think it's important to see that influence is there, and to fight it back, if necessary/wanted.
We're in the middle of a paradigm/generation shift IMHO. Getting back to type design (or design in general), I personally find it much easier to produce good design, smooth curves &c. on screen than with a pen on paper. On the other hand, many of my colleagues still believe there is some sort of brain—hand expressway. Both views coexist – the medial landscape *is* shifting.
I wonder how long a majority will cling to the "old" ways.

"and both have practical applications in an increasingly digital age."
Are you sure there's more practicality in this statement than nostalgia?

[hrant]

> They WANT to learn

Yes, but it's our responsibility to teach them the best things.
Their time and attention -like everybody else's- is limited.

Nancy, drawing is awesome! But when it comes to "visible language" we give it way too much importance - for some people it becomes a pseudo-religion. It's comical to picture the not-too-distance past -and the not-too-distant future- where people did -and will do- just fine without authoring visible language by hand. In the future they will look back at us and laugh, just like we now laugh at pre-decimal counting systems, or pushing sticks into mud to remember stuff.

> And what if you’ve only learned typing and the power fails

And what if the pencil breaks? I can't tell you how many times I've convinced my son to get a head start on his homework during the drive home only for him to discover that he has nothing to write with. And speaking of cars, what if you live in LA and your car stops working? Knowing to walk doesn't really help much. But frankly that line of reasoning goes nowhere.

> I personally find it much easier to produce good design,
> smooth curves &c. on screen than with a pen on paper.

And it's very telling that at the highest levels (Matthew Carter, Evert Bloemsma and others) type designers design directly onscreen. Simply because, through forward thinking and practice, they have overcome any prejudice towards the hand.

hhp

[John Hudson]

Nina: Getting back to type design (or design in general), I personally find it much easier to produce good design, smooth curves &c. on screen than with a pen on paper.

As do I, and I doubt if I am alone in practising type design as a compensation for bad handwriting. :)

As I explained to Hermann Zapf when showing him some of the diacritic letters I had made for the initial Apple version of Palatino (before Hermann and Akira decided the redraw the entire typeface from scratch), I know what the shapes should look like, but can't make them by hand with a pen in the way that he can.

But what is the skill that I am actually using when I'm designing type directly on the computer? I don't think it is a skill at moving my fingers on a trackball or cursor keys to edit bezier curves, although there is some basic manual competence involved. The skill is in looking and in understanding what I see. There is a difference of kind between the skill involved in making shapes on a computer and making shapes by hand, which has to do with the directness of the relationship between hand, tool and shape. What this means in terms of working with a pen or working with a computer is not that there is a switch between parallel but different skills -- since in the area of design the core skill, of seeing and understanding, remains the same regardless of the tool --, but whether a separate set of skills -- manual, fine motor skills, controlling a mark-making tool in direct contact with a medium -- is employed or bypassed. Or, in the case of education, whether these skills are developed at all.

[enne_son]

Deleted, I don't want to continue in this vein.

[nina]

"I know what the shapes should look like, but can’t make them by hand with a pen in the way that he can."
John, do I hear you. It's reassuring to hear you say that!
FWIW, when I started out designing my font, I spent about two months awkwardly sketching stuff on tracing paper that never looked right; my design process, the search for the shapes I wanted only took off once I put those sketches aside and moved to FontLab.
So I'm always bewildered when people seem to think that analogue drawing skills are some sort of sine qua non for design in general. Especially nowadays.

"The skill is in looking and in understanding what I see."
That's a very good point. Of course béziers are a tool to be learned and understood too, but one that definitely favors brainpower over physical dexterity. I hear too many from the "hand-drawing fraction" say stuff like "only the hand can produce smooth curves". Well mine can't.

Which reminds me: "physical dexterity leads to mental dexterity", as has been stated in this thread, seems… well, let's say oversimplified at the very least, if not somewhat beside the point in the digital age. If I was thinking the way I can draw, I'd have an IQ of about 50.

"What this means [is] whether a separate set of skills — manual, fine motor skills, controlling a mark-making tool in direct contact with a medium — is employed or bypassed. Or, in the case of education, whether these skills are developed at all."
So do you think they should be [to the degree that they currently are]?

[phrostbyte64]

Obviously, some people have constant access to technology and power. They obviously have unlimited resources (ie. money) to replace both technology and power. They obviously haven't been without power for weeks at a time due to circumstances beyond their control. Every person in their world has a computer, printer and high speed internet access. Writing, therefore, is an archaic method of communication. Let's just not teach kids to write. All they need is keyboarding, right?

Reality sucks and one should always be prepared to walk in case things break down. Otherwise, you are just a boat anchor to those who can.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...from the Fontry

[hrant]

James, FWIW, I grew up in the Lebanese civil war - my Commodore 64 was without power for weeks at a time. And one reason I like type design is exactly because it doesn't require tons of heavy technology.

> Let’s just not teach kids to write.

No just yet, but soon.
Just like we don't teach little girls to sew anymore.

hhp

[phrostbyte64]

good luck with that...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...from the Fontry

[bowerbird]

altaira said:
> “physical dexterity leads to mental dexterity”,
> as has been stated in this thread, seems… well,
> let’s say oversimplified at the very least, if not
> somewhat beside the point in the digital age.
> If I was thinking the way I can draw,
> I’d have an IQ of about 50.

nobody said physical dexterity was the _sole_ route
to mental dexterity.

and your i.q. -- to the extent there is such a thing --
is probably set by now.

but had you been _taught_ to draw as a youngster,
it might have raised your i.q. above what it is now.

one of the main sections in the i.q. test is one that
assesses ability to manipulate spatial dimensions...
(it's the one that shows drawings of pieces of paper
in various shapes, with fold-lines at certain places.)

that's why i suggested that things like origami and
knot-tying -- and even sudoku -- could be helpful...

it's also the case that _any_ form of _mastery_ can
help produce a positive mental state that can lead to
increased intellectual activity. i was reminded of this
recently when reading a post by dave winer on his blog:
> http://www.scripting.com/stories/2009/03/25/iGetIdeasWhenISki.html

dave gets ideas when he goes skiing...

-bowerbird

p.s. along a similar line, some common problems
in the learning of handwriting -- e.g., flipping letters,
either horizontally or vertically -- are also associated
with dyslexia and autism.

[John Hudson]

Nina, my take on child development is that children should be allowed to play, and most of the skills they need in this world will be developed as a result of play: the way you played with your mother's typewriter when you were four. I do think thank tactile, manual play is of primary importance, especially for very young children: direct engagement with objects, manipulating them, making them interact, etc. Manipulating things via indirect controls, such as using a computer, is of secondary importance and something that, developmentally, follows from the first and can't be a substitute for it.

I don't think there is any point in schooling children in e.g. Spencerian penmanship -- especially not if the tool you give them to do it with is a ballpoint pen! --, but I do think it is important for children to develop the fine motor skills that will enable them to learn that form of writing, or any other form that appeals to them, when they want to do so. I think there are a lot of people in the world who would love to make calligraphy, or even simply produce everyday handwriting that gives them pleasure, but who lack fundamental motor skills and this lack will make it very, very difficult for them to obtain even competence let along excellence.

[Quincunx]

John, very well put.

[Nick Shinn]

Window of opportunity:
Is writing one of those skills, like speaking a foreign language, which, if one doesn't learn it when young, is much harder to acquire when older, to the extent that one never fully masters it?

BTW:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/3103421.stm

[canderson]

This may be a bit off topic... It is rare lately that I write any thing with a pen or pencil. Even mundane notes, recipes, grocery lists are typed, so that I can save them in my computer without wasting paper. Sometimes, I need hard copy, such as the grocery list, so I might take the information with me. The side effect is that most of what I write is typeset. The zeitgeist of the near future may make paper even less necessary. I do not yet have a way to easily transfer text to my telephone, although many people do.

It seems that a child today will transition to this medium much faster than I did; probably in elementary school.

Manipulating things via indirect controls, such as using a computer, is of secondary importance and something that, developmentally, follows from the first and can’t be a substitute for it.

I'm not sure that dragging a stick across a page is that fundamentally different than pressing a button which causes the line to appear. Have we tried simply teaching a child without handwriting? Would it be a disaster?

[dezcom]

It depends on the child. We cannot assume that there is only one way to reach every child's best means of interaction.

ChrisL