multilingual alternative to Trajan

[hrant]

I said nothing about classy or not. There are enough fonts out there that it should be possible to find something that better expresses to Russians what Trajan expresses to others. Note this simple but crucial fact: Trajan is much more common in the West than its Cyrillic versions are in Russia. In fact it's possible (as some of us have been saying) that Trajan is not really "classy" in the West anymore. So what to do? If Stephen is stuck with Trajan for the Latin, it might actually make sense to break with the mood and choose something truly classy for the Cyrillic - quite possibly a Cyrillic Trajan! :-) But this wouldn't be the same thing as saying "they mean the same things".

And William, what are you, the thought police? If you want to change his mind put forward your arguments; saying "just do what that other guy said without thinking" is really lame. If you don't feel qualified to give specific Cyrillic advice, maybe stick to the general stuff (like I have) and say something like "Don't worry, a font's formal features mean the same things in any culture". The thing is, do you believe that?

Now that Steven has an idea in his head, a truly helpful person would try to subvert his own opinions and suggest some Cyrillic fonts. For one thing, nobody is omniscient - any of us could be wrong on anything. FWIW suggesting Cyrillic fonts is something I don't feel qualified to do myself (although I'll still try to help if better people don't).

hhp

[William Berkson]

Hrant, I am not trying to control anybody. I am just baffled by the indifference to evidence.

Maxim is a reader of Russian, in touch with Russian type designers, who are in turn in touch with their public through response to their designs. It is not a question of believing this person's or that person's opinion. The issue here is what feeling Cyrillic Trajan will give to Cyrillic readers. So the reports of Cyrillic readers seem to me to constitute evidence for or against your theory.

If 100% of Cyrillic readers, including those who read languages that use roman type, would say that Cyrillic versions of Trajan look classy to them, would you still insist that you must be right that Trajan doesn't have a similar emotional connotation for Cyrillic readers?

To repeat my question, what evidence could ever lead you to question your theory?

[hrant]

Why do you think Stephen was indifferent? And what "evidence", exactly?

> The issue here is what feeling Cyrillic Trajan will give to Cyrillic readers.

I think that -for anybody- this is more a result of a belief system rather than any hard evidence. This is a human thing, especially in a field where empirical evidence is so scarce. As such if you have different fundamental beliefs, it's necessary to filter -sometimes drastically- an expert's opinions.

> similar emotional connotation

How similar? I might agree that it's somewhat similar. But considering how many good Cyrillic fonts are out there, it seems very unlikely there isn't something better-aligned.

BTW, if I made an Armenian Trajan, do you really think it would seem as "classy" (or whatever - see end) as traditional/historic Armenian letterform styles? Can Russian visual culture really be bereft of its own parameters?

> what evidence could ever lead you to question your theory?

Good question. But let's start small; long-held theories tend to need to be eroded down over time, not demolished in a second. For example over the past ten years I've slowly built up my beliefs about readability; one study by one scientist will only chip off a small piece of the iceberg at best. An exceptionally good study might cause a good-sized crack; but I can't simply dump all the other evidence from over the years.

In this case, if somebody did a really good survey and asked Russians (and not Russian designers mind you) to rank a good number of fonts for "classiness" and Trajan came out on top, I would certainly acquire a seed of doubt. Now, doing such a survey is a tall order, I admit; but that's why I said what I said above about "belief systems".

HOWEVER: Please note again what I wrote about Trajan not necessarily being "classy" in the West now.

hhp

[nina]

I don't see how it's not OK to question what experts say, and suggest/discuss alternate theories with an open mind. FWIW, to me that doesn't mean disrespect to the experts, but rather a deep interest and curiosity about the issue at hand.*
And, "evidence"? This isn't exact science; in fact I think the point I've been trying to make is (and has to be) quite fuzzy, namely:

"The issue here is what feeling Cyrillic Trajan will give to Cyrillic readers."
Actually, the question was if Cyrillic Trajan can evoke exactly the same things as Latin Trajan. Which isn't quite the same question to ask.

"If 100% of Cyrillic readers, including those who read languages that use roman type, would say that Cyrillic versions of Trajan look classy to them, would you still insist that you must be right that Trajan doesn’t have a similar emotional connotation for Cyrillic readers?"
1) Similar, but like Hrant said: How similar?
2) Nobody here has said a Cyrillic Trajan couldn't look «classy» (or had to be less «classy» than a Latin Trajan). The point was that a Cyrillic Trajan can't mean the exact same thing, within a Cyrillic context, as Trajan does in a Latin context, in terms of its cultural connotations; and FWIW I don't even think Maxim contradicted this exact point (please correct me if I'm mistaken).
The «cultural difference» point we've been raising may, like I said before, appear almost negligible in this context; but it's a matter of principle to acknowledge that it still exists.

"Can Russian visual culture really be bereft of its own parameters?"
Exactly - that was what I tried to get at with my «language/translation» thing above. Every script has its own «design space», its own history and culture, like languages have a vocabulary and a grammar and a history and an identity; and none of them are exactly alike, and exchangeable. Maybe Cyrillic is very similar to Latin, but they're still not exchangeable.

(* BTW, in case it matters: I did study Russian for a couple of years [although my Russian is pretty bad now].)

[William Berkson]

Hrant, Nina, I think Maxim's comments do reflect a pretty good survey, even though indirect.

[nina]

William, my point was the question is a different one.

(Edit: Sorry – looks like we crossposted.)

[William Berkson]

Your claim that Maxim took issue with was:

"Cyrillic font in the same style is presumably not going to have the same feel, or trigger the same associations."

That's the question I've been addressing.

You now say that the "question was if Cyrillic Trajan can evoke exactly the same things".

"Exactly" wasn't in what you originally wrote. I would of course acknowledge that nothing is exactly the same as anything else, but that wasn't exactly the issue :)

[Jongseong]

I think the parallels with translation are illuminating. No translation is going to evoke exactly the same things as the original. No two languages are exactly alike in the way they express thoughts and feelings. Moreover, the cultural milieu of the audiences are different. These problems are multiplied when it comes to translating literature, especially poetry.

There have been competing opinions on how to translate literature throughout the ages. One undying debate, very broadly simplified, is between those that would slavishly follow the forms of the source language, and those that would try to make the translation as natural as possible in the target language.

The latter position is intuitive enough. Who doesn't want a translation to read well, enough to make you forget that it is a translation? However, you might be surprised how many people throughout history argued the former position, even taken to extremes. Vladimir Nabokov declared, "The clumsiest literal translation is a thousand times more useful than the prettiest paraphrase."

Wouldn't wholesale import of forms foreign to the target language get in the way of enjoying the piece of literature as the original language readers would? And wouldn't the introduction of such unnatural, foreign idioms be detrimental to the purity of the language? Perhaps, but there were those throughout history who saw this as enrichment of the language and broadening of its expressive potential.

Now, I think we can all agree that it is hopeless to expect a counterpart to Trajan in Cyrillic that evokes exactly the same things as the Latin original; it isn't even clear what it evokes to the Latin audience anymore. The question is what sort of design will be closest—the best translation, if you will, of Trajan in Cyrillic. Those who would copy Trajan's forms slavishly are like those literal translators who have no scruples about introducing foreign forms into the language. They will have language purists crying foul.

Over time, some of the foreign quirks introduced into the language through such translation become accepted and become a natural part of the language, while others remain stilted and unnatural. I am not a native reader of Cyrillic, but I can certainly imagine it going either way with the forms of monumental Roman capitals adopted into Cyrillic. Or that parts of the Cyrillic readership will feel it is an acceptable and naturalized part of the Cyrillic palette, and perhaps even that they can claim as much cultural ownership to these forms as modern Latin users based on a shared history of idealizing Classical Antiquity; while others deem it too foreign, or worse, a fake reconstruction of a "Classical" Cyrillic that obscures the actual development of classical Cyrillic letter forms. Remember, Cyrillic users are as varied a bunch as the Latin users.

[vincent_morley]

Even a hundred years ago languages such as German and Irish would commonly be printed using different forms of the Latin alphabet from the humanist model we are familiar with.

That is very true.

Trajan has two associations in my mind: a primary association with imperial Rome and a secondary association with neo-classical inscriptions dating from the eighteenth century onwards.

My guess is that a Trajan-inspired Cyrillic would have similar associations for a Russian. Clearly, those associations are of foreign origin in both Ireland and Russia, but they are also part of a more general European patrimony.

After all, Moscow is called the 'third Rome' ...

[Maxim Zhukov]

• My guess is that a Trajan-inspired Cyrillic would have similar associations for a Russian. Clearly, those associations are of foreign origin in both Ireland and Russia, but they are also part of a more general European patrimony.

Precisely.

[dan_reynolds]

I just don't understand the dilemma at all, sorry :(

Russia is part of Europe, at least the big western-most cities. And European history is completely unimaginable without Russia (both before, during, and after the Soviet era). Just look at any history book.

I'm not Russian, but I bet that Russian children learn about the Roman Empire in school. And I bet a lot of Cyrillic readers would get Trajan Cyrillic ("oh, it's supposed to be ROMAN!").

This is just display typography, not a matter of life and death. It isn't like setting a few lines of Russian text in Trajan Cyrillic is going to harm Russian Culture, or anything else.

Look at Hollywood posters... Trajan is on it's way out anyway (at least for awhile ;-) ).

[Jongseong]

The demand for the definitive Cyrillic version of Adobe Trajan is huge, and it is not likely to go away. Unauthorised Cyrillisations of Carol Twombly’s Trajan abound.

I'm just curious: Will Adobe ever look into this huge demand? How likely is it that there will one day be an authorized Cyrillic version of Trajan?

[Thomas Phinney]

Adobe has long been aware of the potential utility of, and market interest in, expanded language support for Trajan (and indeed, a number of their existing typefaces).

Beyond that, I think I'll have to defer to current Adobe folks to comment. :)

T

[nina]

Thanks Brian – you put a lot into [beautiful] words that I had at the back of my mind too.

Dan, you don't think it's likely that different scripts imply / are connected with different visual cultures, even when they're very close?
Dunno, I'm not going on about life and death. What baffles me is how otherworldly it seems to some that one can question such things. Honestly, to me the question itself is beautiful (and not because it «proves» something). I believe that design, and especially type design, and especially the case of cross-overs from one script into another, are very delicate, and ask for much sensitivity for barely perceptible shifts. Even if this tectonic fault only causes a barely perceptible wobble, it deserves attention. (I still don't believe it's not there, sorry.)

[hrant]

> Russia is part of Europe

So is Armenia, a bit.
The question is, is Russia enough part of Europe*, and are there so few Russian fonts, that a Cyrillic Trajan is probably your best bet? It seems extremely unlikely that "classy" uses almost exactly the same formal language in Russia than it does in London or Rome.

* How many years now, BTW? And have you been to places besides Moscow and St Petersburg? Those two contain ~10% of Russia's population; and Novosibirsk (Russia's third-largest city) is very different than Europe.

> This is just display typography, not a matter of life and death.

1) Almost nothing in type is that important; but we still do it.
2) Yes, Russian culture is pretty secure (especially these days). I haven't even gotten into the power of type to forestall cultural assimilation*, I've just focused on Stephen's needs on this project.
3) Even among those people who think that there is a difference between display and text type, there are many (probably the majority) who think that it still doesn't matter in text either.
4) Things are quite different display vs text: in the former, formal features actually have more cultural weight**, and -being evaluated consciously- they affect direct cultural development much more than in text type; in contrast text type might have a deeper and longer-lasting cultural effect, but there technical issues take precedence. When you believe that it's a good idea to formally map Trajan over to Cyrillic, you're much more likely to end up making/supporting Cyrillic text type that's Latinized (but not the other way around).

* Something huge for Armenians for example.

** In display type matching x-heights to me makes sense for example.

--

It's sad to see so many people from cultures that are formerly or currently seen as "backwards" go too far in adopting the values and mores of a culture they see as "superior". Change is good, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!

hhp

[DavidL]

Adobe has long been aware of the potential utility of, and market interest in, expanded language support for Trajan (and indeed, a number of their existing typefaces).

Experiments with expanding the script coverage (among other aspects) in Trajan have proceeded to a fairly advanced stage this year. But like everyone else, we wrestle with the trade-offs that come with finite time & resources. Doing one project means not doing another, and in-demand as it might be, an improved Trajan hasn't yet become the top priority. So an extended Trajan is increasingly likely, but not yet a certainty.
- thanks,
David L

[andrijtype]

beautiful cyrillic Goudy Trajan is available for free: http://www.castletype.com/html/tipoteca/goudy-trajan-regular.html

this cyrillic is very nice

[William Berkson]

Andrijko, that version of Trajan is obviously more indebted to Adobe Trajan than to Goudy Forum, Goudy's interpretation of the letters on the Trajan Column.

[Florian Hardwig]

William, apart from Goudy Forum, there’s also a Goudy Trajan.

[William Berkson]

Florian, you're right, I forgot about Goudy Trajan. But when I checked McGrew's American Metal Typefaces, the Castle revival still seems to owe more to Adobe's version than to Goudy's.

As Castle notes on MyFonts, he doesn't follow Goudy at all on the figures; these do resemble Adobe's also.

[hrant]

The only good Trajan figures were done by Catich.

hhp

[quadibloc]

In a bit of web searching, I found Romul from ParaType, so someone in Russia has tried to create a typeface embodying the spirit of Trajan.

[John Hudson]

The Cyrillic and Greek extensions to Adobe Trajan are now available, under the name Trajan Pro 3.

I have to say that I'm disappointed not to see an 'Imperial Omega' glyph variant.

[dan_reynolds]

I have to say that I'm disappointed not to see an 'Imperial Omega' glyph variant

Oh my. Where is a Facebook “Like” button when you need it!