Small-cap Eszett impossible to input in InDesign?

[Rob Mientjes]

This topic was imported from the Typophile platform

I've been working on the specimen booklet for my graduation typeface (part digitisation of Manuscript Antikva, part stylistic extrapolation), and have run into the curious situation of not being able to use one of my designed characters.

As Adam Twardoch mentions here, uppercase ß will still map to SS. Oddly, however, InDesign CS5 allows me to input the capital Eszett just fine. However, the small-caps variant is seemingly impossible (I've attached a screenshot of the usual situation upon insertion—small-caps SS). I can only think of placing it in the Private Use Area, but I'd rather not. So, in short, how can I access the actual glyph at codespace uni00DF.sc without InDesign telling me what it's supposed to be?

[Riccardo Sartori]

Shouldn’t the small-cap ß be placed by the app as a variant of the regular one?

[andreas]

sub uni1E9E by uni1E9E.sc; will work

germandbls to SS is hard coded and InDesign programmers don't get it.
BTW: In InDesign (pre CS versions) 1 to 2.0 it will work.

[twardoch]

The glyph should be accessible through the "smcp" feature of the font:

feature smcp {
sub a by a.smcp;
sub b by b.smcp;
...
sub germandbls by germandbls.smcp;
...
} smcp;

(As should all the other small-cap letters).

In InDesign, it would be accessible through the "Small caps" option in the Character palette. I'm not aware of any situations where InDesign would perform some behind-the-scenes additional operations when applying small caps.

In addition, you'll probably want to have the "c2sc" feature in your font which maps uppercase letters to the small-cap variants. You can choose to create an additional set of small cap glyphs for those (identical in shape but with different glyph names, so a small-cap "A" would exist in the font as "a.smcp" and as "A.c2sc") or you could just use the same set (named whatever you wish).

If you go with the separate sets, then the small-cap ß would exist as "germandbls.smcp" and as "uni1E9E.c2sc", and the code for "c2sc" would be then:

feature c2sc {
sub A by A.c2sc;
sub B by B.c2sc;
...
sub uni1E9E by uni1E9E.c2sc;
...
} c2sc;

Cheers,
Adam

[Nick Shinn]

I differ from Adam on this.

I've put this character in my fonts since it was introduced in Unicode, but only make it available through c2sc, not smcp.

In the smcp feature, ß maps to a special double-s glyph.
This is so that "caps with small caps"—which is what, in implementation, smcp really is — is a true bicameral setting, corresponding with the way that ß is capitalized by layout engines.

However, if the special Eszett character exists as text in a cap setting (never as titlecase, of course!), that makes it OK to have it in the c2sc feature—which is, in implementation, "all small caps".

[twardoch]

I'm not really advocating any particular design solution, I'm just suggesting a coding solution.

The decision what kind of shape to put as a small-cap ß which is intended to work in "smcp" is up to the designer. I mean, whether your "germandbls.smcp" looks like a small-cap version of the uppercase "ß" or if it's a smallcap "ss" is a design decision. But the code I've given will work either way.

[Rob Mientjes]

Thanks for all the replies! I'm pretty sure Andreas is actually outlining what I'm saying: InDesign has it hardcoded, and that makes it impossible to input. To check up on my sanity, here is the OpenType in place:


@LC_ALPHA = [a-z germandbls];
@UC_ALPHA = [A-Z uni1E9E];
@UC_SMCP = [A.sc-Z.sc uni1E9E.sc];

feature c2sc {
sub @UC_ALPHA by @UC_SMCP;
sub @LC_ALPHA by @UC_SMCP;
sub @LC_PUNCT by @SMCP_PUNCT;
sub @PNUMS by @SCNUMS;
sub @ONUMS by @SCNUMS;
} c2sc;

(I realise I'm conflating c2sc and smcp; that's laziness, and will be resolved as soon as I get to the final designs.)

[Nick Shinn]

This line is not necessary in c2sc:

sub @LC_ALPHA by @UC_SMCP;

Also, for @LC_SMCP, make sure that germandbls is substituted by "germandbls.smcp", which is two small cap "s"s.

**

This is what should happen:

The fact that "mixed case to small caps/all small caps" loses the distinction between Gross and Groß follows on from the way that layout engines convert "mixed case to all caps", losing the distinction there (although it is maintained in the underlying text). This is because traditionally there was no cap eszett accessible in most fonts or via keyboards, and this behaviour has been grandfathered.

[Rob Mientjes]

Hey Nick,

Thanks for clarifying. Changed germandbls.smcp to two smcp-'s's. I finally understand the point about the SS-conversion. I've changed my OpenType code, but am not sure about its functionality. In FontLab, c2sc just swaps the caps? And InDesign combines c2sc and smcp when selecting All Small Caps? I am not sure. Here's my OpenType code.

feature smcp {
sub @LC_ALPHA by @LC_SMCP;
} smcp;

feature c2sc {
sub @UC_ALPHA by @UC_C2SC;
sub @LC_PUNCT by @SMCP_PUNCT;
sub @PNUMS by @SCNUMS;
sub @ONUMS by @SCNUMS;
} c2sc;

[update]
All of this worked! InDesign allows me to input small cap uni1E9E when cap uni1E9E is used, and otherwise inserts 'ss'. Thanks a lot for all the help.

[twardoch]

Yes, in InDesign, "all small caps" invokes both "smcp" and "c2sc".

Also, I tested the substitution:

feature smcp {
sub germandbls by germandbls.smcp;
} smcp;

in InDesign CS5 Middle East on Mac OS X, and it I found that when using the "Paragraph Composer", then "ß" is indeed converted to "ss" before "smcp" is applied, while when using the "World-Ready Paragraph Composer", germandbls is indeed being substituted directly.

My guess is that when using "Paragraph Composer", when the "Small Caps" is applied, InDesign converts all lowercase text in the string to uppercase, and then to lowercase again, using the Unicode case mapping rules, and the "smcp" feature is applied after that. When using the "World-Ready Paragraph Composer" is used, the "smcp" feature is applies without any preprocessing.

[Nick Shinn]

And what does it do when "all caps" is applied?
Does it turn ß into cap eszett?

(Sorry, I don't have the latest version of CS.)

[John Hudson]

Nick: Does it turn ß into cap eszett?

It certainly shouldn't. Bear in mind that the cap eszett character is a minority display preference: the formal case mapping of lowercase ß to uppercase is still SS, according to both German standard spelling and Unicode case mapping.

[Nick Shinn]

John: …the formal case mapping of lowercase ß to uppercase is still SS…

Is this likely to change, as more and more fonts incorporate the new Unicode character?

Are German typographers exercising the "minority display preference"?

It's been three years since the new character was formalized in Unicode.

Is it part of any standard encodings?

How many new fonts include it?

How many foundries include it in all new fonts as a matter of course?

[dan_reynolds]

The German standard spelling regarding ß to SS is not likely to change based on font character set support. I suspect that, like most bodies that add words to language and regulate spelling, changes to German orthography will be made based on a combination of history and current use of how the language is spoken and written. German recently had a big spelling reform; whether another top-down reform could come in the near future … I have no idea.

One should not judge what practicing German typographers are doing based on glyph design discussions of a certain number of type designers alone. The pros and cons of the cap eszett are still quite active topics of discussion among German typographers. No particular feeling toward the new form is universal yet. I certainly know plenty of type designers, book designers, and typography professors who are not in favor of cap eszett use.

>How many foundries include it in all new fonts as a matter of course?

Well, I work at the largest foundry in the country, and we do not include these new glyphs in all new fonts as a matter of course. In fact, we include them in hardly any new fonts. There are a few fonts with them now, but only because the type designers behind the fonts wanted to include them. Otherwise (in the majority of cases, in fact), they are not part of the character set. Some of the type designers that I work with are actually relieved about this, because they are not in favor of the cap eszett yet either, and do not want to have to draw them just for the sake of character set completion.

[k.l.]

You cited the wrong part of John's post. :)
Coming up with some character, unicoding it and adding it to fonts is one thing. But unless there will be yet another spelling reform ...

[Replying to Nick.]

[dan_reynolds]

Thank you, Karsten, for saying in so few words what I could not get across with so many!

[k.l.]

Unfortunately I saw your comment only after posting mine which reloaded the page ...
Good to know about the largest foundry's praxis as to this character!
Isn't it largest foundry in Europe by now? :)

[dan_reynolds]

Well, in terms of library size, as well as the number of fonts and the number of staff working on those fonts, I guess that ITC-Linotype-Monotype could be called the largest foundry at the moment; in Europe and elsewhere.

[Nick Shinn]

Thanks for the candid response, Dan.
It's good to know that MegaFont GmbH isn't totally behind this new gizmo—gives me the edge!
I quite enjoy drawing the character. More fun than Aringacute or Greenlandic k.

[hrant]

Nothing is more fun than Armenian. :-)
Small character set, the familiarity of left-to-right non-joining forms in two cases,
and half a dozen characters at least as challenging as the Latin lc binocular "g".

hhp

[Ralf H.]

The German standard spelling regarding ß to SS is not likely to change based on font character set support.

Well, of course the change of the standard spelling requires a sufficient support of the character in typical operating systems first. Everything else would be madness.
And the common dictionary publishers like DUDEN will follow whatever the users make their standard.

And actually, I am surprised how many users actually use it even today—especially on the internet. Even though there are no easy input methods yet and even though many readers will still see a NOT DEF sign instead. It is spreading—whether the conservative typographers like it or not.

But apart from that I fully agree, the standard is still ß to SS in uppercase and small caps and fonts, design applications and browsers should implement it that way. (Maybe leaving additional options for using the cap Eszett instead in stylistic sets and the like.)

[dezcom]

I guess there will always be disagreement between German speakers about the use of that glyph--some even quite passionate about it. I usually include it but not for any philosophical reason. I just put it in there for those who need it. I don't care to get involved in the pro and con positions opposing sides site. Those who want it can use it and those who don't can just ignore it. I put there just like the florin, AE Ring acute, etc. and let the user have the option if so desired. I include it in the c2sc code and as a stylistic alternate to the S_S.sc glyph.

My understanding is that the majority of uses involve proper names mostly of towns and cities.

[John Hudson]

The strongest argument I have heard in favour of the new Unicode character, from a German, is that it enables reliable one-to-one round-trip case mapping, which is desirable in data management for things like e.g. passport control. There are apparently some German names in which a distinction between ß and ss is critical, and different government agencies store names in all uppercase or in mixed case.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the design of the glyph, but only with the existence of the distinct codepoint for an uppercase eszett, which might ostensibly be displayed as /SS/.

[John Hudson]

On the subject of Duden, it is worth noting that the 1957 East German Duden (Lepizig) provides one of the notable instances of an uppercase eszett.

[John Hudson]

Ralf: And the common dictionary publishers like DUDEN will follow whatever the users make their standard.

My impression of Duden is that it tends to favour a top-down approach to spelling, reflecting official decision making rather than popular usage. Duden seemed to be key in disseminating the recent spelling reform.