Copying Metrics OK?

[Member hra…]

This topic was imported from the Typophile platform

https://typography.guru/forums/topic/100337-forwarding#comment-496059

This is something I've long wondered about: is it
OK or is it not OK to copy metrics off of a font?

hhp

[Member Ric…]

I don’t know about it being OK or not. Surely it is a widespread practice, probably since Gutenberg,
Anyway, there is a recent thread about the legitimacy of copying them directly from the font file.

[Member hra…]

> Surely it is a widespread practice

Really? I mean verbatim copying.
I can only think of Helvetica/Arial.

So where's that thread?

hhp

[Member Ric…]

Other examples would be a number of alternatives to Microsoft’s fonts (among others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_fonts#Characteristics).
As for the thread, not the one I remember, but about the same issue: https://typography.guru/forums/topic/67973-forwarding

[Member Si_…]

What do you mean by metrics? Just the basic advance widths of base characters, or kerning, and the widths of OpenType alternates, mark positioning etc.,

[Member hra…]

Thanks Riccardo - I'll get to reading that thread.
If you remember more please do let me know. I need
to figure out exactly where to stand on the issue.

Simon: I mean that switching the font doesn't
affect text-flow. So ideally total conformity,
although I guess there could be "levels" to that
that can be switched on/off?

And since you're here:
Do you know if MS and/or Monotype mind the metric
"compatibility" of Liberation, officially or otherwise?
Although now that Monotype owns ascender... :-/
BTW, the wiki ways "closely match" - might that just be
sloppy/hedgy writing or are there in fact discrepancies?

hhp

[Member dez…]

I guess I would wonder why a person would assume that font metrics from one font would work well for any font? Even if they were similar in style and proportion, I don't think I could trust the data to be correct.
I can understand looking at a few basic relationships of sidebearings to try to get a certain fit and color as a starting point but a wholesale lift from someone else just makes me very uncomfortable. Not just for the property rights and honesty issues but just for the assumption that it would work to my liking. Even if Frutiger or Carter had come up with the original, I just could not assume that the outcome would be as good with some other set of outlines.

[Member hra…]

It "works well" because it lets you swap out
one for the other, sort of like a coup d'état. :-)
From that wiki: "The Liberation fonts are
intended as free, open-source replacements
of the aforementioned encumbered fonts."

hhp

[Member Nic…]

The metrics and stem widths of Brown Gothic weren’t copied from, just based on FG.
The goal was to match the word count and general impression of size and weight.

[Member 199…]

A font has to be terribly close to an existing font to be able to use the same metrics, kerning, etc. However, I can see the point of temporarily using another font's metrics (and all the rest) when testing it during the design process, instead of constantly having to adjust the spacing and kerning as you change the glyphs. Furthermore, if the fonts are similar, I wouldn't mind at all if someone just took another fonts metrics and changed them a bit to fit his/her own font. It's more efficient in some cases and you can hardly call metrics intellectual property, right?

Nick, just out of curiosity, does Brown Gothic have a double story /g/ as well?

[Member hra…]

Jasper, that doesn't make any sense. I could easily
modify Patria to make it space just like Times, but
it would still look nothing like it.

Again: the central point of copying metrics
is to replace the other font in typesetting.

hhp

[Member Jen…]

Again: the central point of copying metrics is to replace the other font in typesetting.

But how far do you go?

If you have a specific target, it sounds viable. For example, replacing Arial with a custom font in a company's Word templates. (I believe there is a set of fonts in the DBType family that does exactly that.) You could be pretty sure that kerning isn't used, so keeping the horizontal glyph metrics (and vertical font metrics!) should be enough.

If you're targeting InDesign, you need to take into account kerning and other OpenType features that are on by default (ligatures, contextual alternates).

There can be some glyphs that severely limit your choices when you want to stay compatible. For example, an uppercase I with serifs in a sans face (e.g. Verdana). You just can't make it sans-serif and keep the advance width the same.

On a side note, in the IBM Selectric Composer the characters were proportionally spaced, but every letter had to have the exact same width in all fonts! Frutiger notes in his big book that he had to compromise on his Univers adaptation because the engineers had chosen a Renaissance face as their model for the character widths. E.g. the s in the Composer Univers looks much too narrow.

[Member hra…]

DBType: Heh, what goes around comes around! :-)

> If you're targeting InDesign, you need to take
> into account kerning and other OpenType features

Indeed - and that's what Simon was alluding to.
So, is that an extra legal barrier? An extra ethical
barrier it's not (I mean in terms of already being
OK with copying metrics).

hhp

[Member Nic…]

Nick, just out of curiosity, does Brown Gothic have a double story /g/ as well?

No.
That makes me wonder, what would a binocular g for Helvetica or Univers look like?

[Member Jam…]

That makes me wonder, what would a binocular g for Helvetica or Univers look like?

Ugly (this statement is based on personal tastes only)

[Member Ben…]

>you can hardly call metrics intellectual property, right?

Hm, what's your rationale for this? It's a lengthy process to settle on really good metrics. Also, as many have observed, a well-spaced font with some bad curves is more useable than a poorly-spaced font with amazing curves. I see metrics as an integral part of the design process, requiring just as much skill as the actual drawing, if not more.

Even if there's no legal copyright infringement, I would personally consider it bad practice that raises ethical issues.

[Member eli…]

That makes me wonder, what would a binocular g for Helvetica or Univers look like?

Would be a good Type Battle if we still did those.

[Member Jen…]

So, is that an extra legal barrier?

I didn't consider the legality of reproducing OT features, I was more thinking that it would be a design barrier ;) The more restrictions you have, the less you can diverge from the »original« design. For example, if OpenType substitutions occur that replace glyphs by other glyphs which have different metrics. You would have to emulate this behaviour exactly to avoid reflow.

[Member hra…]

Ben, just because something requires time to make
doesn't of itself make it worth protecting, at least
not in a practical sense. Personally I haven't made
a decision yet of where to stand, but being a devout
pragmatist, this is how I might approach it:

Could a font that copies the metrics of another reduce
sales of the original? I can't see how, since it assumes
the original is already in possession. In fact if anything
it might -rarely- increase sales of the original!

Now, I can imagine hypothetical cases where it could
affect the finances of the designer of the original. But
part of being pragmatic is exactly the willingness to
address things case-by-case.

hhp

[Member Ben…]

>Ben, just because something requires time to make
doesn't of itself make it worth protecting, at least
not in a practical sense.

That makes sense to a fellow pragmatist ;) I guess what I'd like to see recognised is the skill required — it's not trivial.

[Member ken…]

> Could a font that copies the metrics of another reduce sales of the original? I can't see how, since it assumes the original is already in possession.

I don’t think that’s necessarily so. Often the impetus to provide an alternative that fits/flows exactly as another is to allow document sharing between one party who possesses the font and another who does not, thereby relieving the second party of having to license the original.

[Member hra…]

Hmmm. Is that common? What kinds of fonts does that happen with?
(Those are bona fide questions, not rhetorical ones.)

hhp

[Member Té…]

Here is one not-yet-touched-upon scenario: A magazine wants to outsource some text entry or layout but does not want to (or can not) let loose their Mongo Eckspensif Sekrit Fonte.

[Member hra…]

Well, that's a good thing: it reduces piracy of the original.

hhp

[Member Té…]

Mind: I have no idea if this is a hypothetical or a real scenario, but it is one possible reason for making a face metrics-compatible with another face. Plus, it does not require conspiracies or foul play.

And, yes, @kentlew, this is the other side of the coin; where the havenot can not get That Typeface, not even in exchange for a genuine Gauguin.