Handles, Béziers & Points

[Fabiouser]

This topic was imported from the Typophile platform

Hello typophiles

Im learning the principles of designing a typeface via software assistant. So, when I need to control beziers to make a 'perfect curve' I fail again and again. I know that failing is good, but I think that the position of points and handles have some science on it.

Today I realize something that perhaps could help me, but I dont know if it make sense, have a look:

It seem to me that handles follow a certain logic that we can find in the structure of calligraphic variations…
This make sense to you?

Where do you [typographers] learn the 'art' of place perfect points and handles?

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Thanks
Fábio Santos

[jonathanhughes]

I think the only way you'll learn the "art" of placing perfect points and handles is by doing it over and over.

In Fontlab, you ideally want your points to be at the extremes of curves.

Also, note that different software behaves slightly differently when it comes to things like deleting bezier points (Fontlab and Illustrator, for instance).

[Ryan Maelhorn]

at last, a real question

[LexLuengas]

The positioning of the anchor points is the most significant thing to achieve a desired curve. If your anchor points are in the wrong position, you may spend hours (yes) trying in vain to get the control points "right".

To understand how to place your anchor points you must understand at least some basic principles of chirography and stroke modulation. Almost all control points come in pairs: for every point there is an opposite point (cf. the brace in your image) at the parallel curve. If you draw a line across each pair of points, you will find out their angle follows a nearly ductal logic. With designs that go apart from chirography the game becomes harder, but to be good at that you first need to fail, again and again, and I can't help you with that.

The principle is the same for the control points: Always think in terms of two lines interacting with each other :-)

I have always seen the "put your points in extrema" convention as a restraint.

[hrant]

This is exactly what you shouldn't be doing.

The "principles of designing a typeface" start and end with the mind's eye, not some arbitrary body part holding an arbitrary marking tool.

hhp

[Fabiouser]

@LexLuengas really taught answer :) thanks;

@hrant my words about principles to design a typeface means in software aid creation system. I do search and drawi typeforms by hand, to train my mind and my knowledge, I'm addicted to it. I just want to know how I can do some experiences in that way. I do not ask this arbitrary :). I don't give up of drawing, and I do not like to sit every hour in front of the computer screen. But, I appreciate the concern :)

Thanks

[hrant]

I'm not sure I understood everything you wrote (and I don't know what you keep smiling at) but:

Don't confuse drawing with -what can quite accurately be called- painting. I draw by hand all the time - it can be wonderfully useful. But we should be drawing the border between black and white, not pairs of lines enclosing the black (which makes no sense functionally, hence is an arbitrary design constraint, a lazy shortcut to nowhere).

Painting only "trains your mind and knowledge" about type's arbitrary past; when it comes to what function type needs to perform, it can only distract you. It doesn't matter if you're using a broad-nib pen, béziers or a ripe avocado tied to a stick.

Related:
https://typography.guru/forums/topic/41095-forwarding

hhp

[Fabiouser]

Conterpunch…

[hrant]

Wait, I thought you said "The Stroke" was helping you achieve perfection... Please, no romantic blanket statements. {Now edited - thank you.} "Counterpunch" is a great book, but it's no type design bible. Luckily we don't have a bible, and hopefully we never will.

BTW it might surprise you to hear that the section about the "j" in "Counterpunch" was actually what started me on the journey that led to my rejection of calligraphic type.

hhp

[Fabiouser]

Today I realize something that perhaps could help me, but I dont know if it make sense, have a look:

I refer calligraphic forms in this node because when I open a typeface on Fontlab, I realize that the handles have some kind of position that resembles the calligraphic experiences that Gerrit Noordzij mention on his book [like the image].

I do like some calligraphic experiences from the past.

Its nice to know how books can make us reject and accept things. Its a curious phenomenon.

[Ryan Maelhorn]

Keep in mind when designing type, all curves are psychological.

[LexLuengas]

But we should be drawing the border between black and white, not pairs of lines enclosing the black

Hrant, perhaps you misunderstood me in my last comment. What I intended to say was that, if your design is chirographical, then your anchor points should reflect that logic you have chosen. But there is not and should not be a fixation towards a chirographical logic, or any other logic at all. I completely agree with you in that aspect.

But there is a logic between the two lines that delimit the shape of a letter. If that interrelationship is meaningful in some way, then this shape will be of some value for "the mind's eye".

However, I don't understand why you would discourage a chirographical approach by someone who has presumably just started with typography. I assume you didn't wan't to discourage the chirographical logic itself (but I may be utterly wrong), but the fixation to that kind of logic. I think it is pretty useful as a starting point, and I also think one has to be careful by making such preclusive statements against chirography, in particular in front of people who do not have any judgement yet. After all, it's better to try to understand Vivaldi and Mozart before trying to understand Thelonius Monk and Keith Jarret.

[hrant]

The "logic" you're talking about is specifically called the "moving front" (by Noordzij), and it does make sense, in its own world.

What bothered me about how Fábio expressed his intentions was the apparent view that the moving front is how typographic forms look "perfect". To me this is totally wrong.

As for whether a beginner should start with the obvious precedents or not, the problem is this precedent is a bad one (something Vivaldi and Mozart are not). I guess it also depends greatly on the individual beginner: some people are strong enough to turn a bad precedent to their advantage; but some people get hopelessly stuck for the rest of their lives.

hhp

[Fabiouser]

What bothered me about how Fábio expressed his intentions was the apparent view that the moving front is how typographic forms look "perfect". To me this is totally wrong.

Now I understand your 'concern' @hrant. I think that the use of the word perfect by myself, was maybe a bad choice. But my intention with this node is just to share a point of view that pop up in my mind and, with that, know if my point of view make any sense to all of you.

[rs_donsata]

Bezier curves inner logic is in no way related to natural geometric, calligraphic or chirographic constructions.
There is a book called "Type by design" which was an instruction book for fontographer. I contains a complete description of the nature of the Bezier curve and many guidelines to achieve the best results with them:

http://www.amazon.com/Fontographer-Type-Design-Stephen-Moye/dp/1558284478

I used to have a PDF of this book but I lost it with my laptop on a fire.

[Fabiouser]

I already put my eyes on that book @rs_donata. A school library near my school have it on the shelf.
I start too look to the ways that characters were made, and I became fascinated, I think that book make me realize some hidden secrets of typeface design. I also brought a nice book: Learn FontLab Fast, by Leslei Cabarga.

Thanks

[Ryan Maelhorn]

I prefer to build in TTF format, becuase it seems only TTF can have those kind of curves where the anchor point floats off the line, and is not connected via a control arm. I believe they are called splines, instead of bezier curves?

Also, when it does come to Bezier Curves, I seem to strangely be wanting a way to lock down the control arms while moving the node around, which is opposite of how one usually edits bezier, where the nodes stay in one place while you're moving around the control arms.

And then we can talk about spiro...

To say the least I still think we have quite a ways to go in "curve editing" as far as techniques are concerned.

[sko]

Both use Bezier curves, but TTF use quadratic while PostScript uses cubic beziers.

[Luma Vine]

Ryan, what you mentioned about moving the point while keeping the control wings is exactly what I have wanted to do in vector software for some time now. I end up using guides to locate the control points and then move the anchor and reposition the control points. It would be incredibly useful to do this for the type of vector work I do for logos and such.

[5star]

Ya Luma I do the same in Illy too. To me it helps visualize the flow of the path whilst maintaining a comparable effect.

n.

[Jens Kutilek]

I seem to strangely be wanting a way to lock down the control arms while moving the node around, which is opposite of how one usually edits bezier

Is it the opposite of usual? I edit curves like this all the time, and I think most outline editors can do that.

FontLab Studio: shift-drag
Robofont: cmd-drag

[eliason]

Glyphs: option-drag

[cerulean]

Always play with the modifier keys when you're learning a program, and you'll discover all sorts of things.

In Fontlab, holding down Alt/Opt while moving a cusp node will move the node while its handles stay in place. Holding down Shift before moving a smooth node will keep the handles in place and constrain the node to the line segment between them. (Shift after you've picked up the node is your usual rectilinear constraint.) Holding down Alt before moving a smooth node will scale and rotate the handles according to the node's relative position along the curve. Alt after you've picked up a smooth node will work like it does for a cusp node, creating a false cusp that will spring back to smooth the next time you mess with the handles.

[LexLuengas]

Has any application ever implemented rational bézier curves? I think it would be quite useful (not only for quadratic curves as shown in the article's image). Maybe it was in front of me all the time and I haven't noticed.

[Ryan Maelhorn]

Thanks, that alt drag is handy