Member can… Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 This topic was imported from the Typophile platform Please, please kill this if there's already a thread that answers my questions.... When can Windows users quit caring about ClearType and anti-aliasing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_displays_by_pixel_density A 13" MacBook Pro has a resolution of 89 ppcm or 227 ppi. My iPhone 4s, which is starting to seem old, has a ppi of 128 ppcm/326ppi. This is no longer 'bleeding edge' technology...millions of people have these devices. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/03/21/scaling-to-different-scree... This answers some of my questions. However, I'm wondering if there are any typophiles who are using, say, a Windows 8 desktop with a high-pixel-density display. I'm having trouble Googling what options are actually available. What I think I want is an external display that I can connect to a reasonably current PC and get 200+ ppi with Windows 8. Is this possible? I don't care if its of physically smaller, I just don't want to be able to see text pixel edges on my PC anymore. Its 2013. Link to comment
Member hra… Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Not that I share your anti-pixel wishful thinking, but: Surface Pro. Also, you can get a 12.5" laptop with a 1920×1080 display. What ppi is that? And I wonder if thishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Vaio_P_series can run Win8. hhp Link to comment
Member Joh… Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 You can run Windows on Mac hardware, of course. I'm aware of folks running Win8 on the 13" MacBook Pro with retina screen. Link to comment
Member hra… Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 And then there's this: http://www.hackintosh.com/ :-) hhp Link to comment
Member alu… Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I'm not aware of 'retina' external monitors but I'm guessing they are out there. You're basically looking for a high PPI screen. But the challenge is if the OS/Software will support the pixel doubling of retina. Even using an actual Retina MacBook to run Windows is tricky for Retina. It looks like it's dependent on the display drivers: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6008/windows-8-on-the-retina-display-macbo... On top of that, the software will have to support it. I'm not even sure Adobe fully supports Retina on OSX yet: http://thenextweb.com/apps/2012/12/11/adobe-brings-retina-support-to-pho... Link to comment
Member hra… Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Relative to what it could be it does look like fuzzy garbage on your mobile phone. I want Baskerville to look as it appears on the printed page And I want chocolate cake to have the nutritional value of a broccoli & apple smoothie. hhp Link to comment
Member can… Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Not that I share your anti-pixel wishful thinking Are you mad? I want Baskerville to look as it appears on the printed page, and the way it appears on my mobile phone when I'm reading books on the subway, not some fuzzy garbage. I want an external PC monitor that can do this...is it not currently possible? I also find it difficult to believe that Apple is so far ahead, that there is no Windows equivalent, regardless of cost. Windows 8 seems to address this to some extent, but where is the hardware. Note: I do not want a touch-screen monitor. Link to comment
Member can… Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 My eyeballs are not perfect, so 326ppi is close to what I will ever be able to physically discern. That's essentially all I'm asking for. Ancient ClearType/anti-aliasing disputes are probably irrelevant at about 4ooppi, at least for this human. Link to comment
Member can… Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 And I want chocolate cake to have the nutritional value of a broccoli & apple smoothie. It would be fine, if at some beyond point, UI designers replaced the artifacts of letterpress printing, but they would surely be subtle--and probably against John Baskerville's intention. Link to comment
Member hra… Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Some ancient things make sense. Like the 90s mantra "Don't believe the hype"... http://www.cultofmac.com/173702/why-retina-isnt-enough-feature/ hhp Link to comment
Member can… Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Surface Pro is 208ppi, but my original question was: are there any external displays for PC that have this resolution? Link to comment
Member Jam… Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 My iPhone and iPad have retina displays and it's really nice; I can't discern pixels no matter how close I get to the screen. But only one of Apple's laptops or desktops have a retina screen at the moment, and that's the MacBook Pro if you pay extra for the retina-screen version. I've read that one reason for the slow adoption in larger screens is that they are harder to manufacture and a relatively high percentage of screens are rejected at the assemble plant (due to bad pixels, etc), therefore slowing production and raising costs. Link to comment
Member can… Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 The simple fact is that text rendered at 326ppi is going to look pretty darn crisp next to any schenanigans used to improve things at 150ppi. It seems like some display maker should step in and provide this for people who want it... Win 8 seems to have the capability. Link to comment
Member Joh… Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I've read that one reason for the slow adoption in larger screens is that they are harder to manufacture and a relatively high percentage of screens are rejected at the assemble plant (due to bad pixels, etc), therefore slowing production and raising costs. Yes, to the extent that I wonder if the 13" MacBook Pro retina screens are a loss leader. Link to comment
Member can… Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 The bottom-end 13" MacBook Pro is still $1700 USD....so the hi-density display adds about $500. I would hope that in 24-36 months all displays will be like this. Link to comment
Member Jam… Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 > so the hi-density display adds about $500 The retina display models are about $500 more, but they come with a solid-state flash drive (which on other MacBooks is around a $200 option). So of that $500 difference, about $300 is for the retina display itself and $200 is for the solid-state drive. But $300 (or so) is still a substantial amount when you consider that the average PC laptop sells for around $500. Link to comment
Member alu… Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Keep in mind it's more than the hardware, though. While high PPI screens could be made, the operating systems and software on them needs to support the concept of 'retina'. One idea I had forgot to mention, though, is to maybe look at getting an iPad 3 and use the AirDisplay app. It turns your iPad into an external monitor. I believe it can preserve the retina display on OSX, though not sure if it can do that with Windows 8 yet. Link to comment
Member Si_… Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 We have Windows 8 running on a couple of retina Mac Books and it seems to be working without major issues. Some details on the Windows 8 approach to scaling and high-DPI is posted here... http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/03/21/scaling-to-different-scree... With respect to ClearType, the new Windows 8 UI and apps use sub-pixel positioned grayscale (basically sub-pixel positioned ClearType with the color removed). The old UI, and desktop apps use ClearType as before, and new apps can opt in to ClearType if they want to. Cheers, Si Link to comment
Member alu… Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 How does sub-pixel grayscale work? Isn't the definition of a sub-pixel imply that it'll be color (RG or B?) Link to comment
Member alu… Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 It looks like AirDisplay does support Retina with OSX. Still not sure about Windows, though: http://blog.avatron.com/post/19668140022/air-display-on-the-third-genera... (For anyone that has an iPad, though, I do recommend this app. I use it a lot on my MacBook to add a second portable screen). Link to comment
Member Jam… Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I'd recommend AirDisplay too; I've tried it with my MacBook/iPad 3 and it works well. Link to comment
Member Si_… Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 >How does sub-pixel grayscale work? Isn't the definition of a sub-pixel imply that it'll be color (RG or B?) Not subpixel rendering (ClearType), but sub-pixel positioning, which means that unlike GDI (where glyphs are drawn on whole pixel boundaries) a glyph can start on fractions of a pixel. Link to comment
Member alu… Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Ah, the position clarification makes sense. But how does that work with 'grayscale'? My understanding of sub pixels is that they are one of the three colors that make up a full pixel. Link to comment
Member Si_… Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I can see the confusion, as a glyph can start on any fraction of a pixel, then "fractional pixel positioning" may be a less confusing way to describe it. Link to comment
Member can… Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 Last update: At last year's CES show, Panasonic demo'd a 20" 216 ppi display, but as far as I can tell, it never made it to market. This year, they announced a 20" 3840 x 2560 pixel tablet, which runs at 230 ppi. The display is not available without a computer and batteries attached however. http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/panasonic-reveals-20-inch-4k-resoluti... So, hi-density displays are arriving for the PC, its just that no one cares about traditionally configured PCs any more--to the extent that there's actually nothing for sale. Link to comment
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