Fontsite/Softmaker: so what?

[hugocristo]

This topic was imported from the Typophile platform

Hello Typophiles,

I've read the following statement in another
thread (Understanding the legal issues...):

Nathan Matteson:
"I think James is hitting it right on the head
here. I've been trying to get my school to buy a
decent font collection - even if only for two or
three "type specific" labs - for nigh on three
years now. We just had a good instructor quit
over the lack of type and the beaurocratic hoops
you have to jump through to [not] get it.

And the closest we got was our bookstore selling
the dubious FontSite CD. :-/"

Well, that statement came in good time. I've
been browsing the websites of many typefoundries
looking for a basic font CD collection to use
on everyday's work at my office.

I've considered all my options, from Bitstream
to URW, and they range from U$ 120 to U$ 500...
That was until yesterday, when I found both
Softmaker (Megafont XXL) and Fontsite (CD 500)
collections, priced as low as U$ 39 and U$ 49...

So, what's up here? I've recognized many fonts
under different names but I didn't get if those
collections are legal or even "ethical".

I'm planning to buy a font CD collection not
only to be "clean", but also because I want
to make sure that the designers would receive
their proper royalties. I mean, what would
Adrian Frutiger receive if I buy FrontPage*
instead of Frutiger?

I want to make clear that I'm not distrusting
any company/person. I'm just curious why and how
those similar font collections can have so
different prices.

There's a Brazilian proverb that says "o barato
sai caro", wich means something like you cannot
have something for nothing... (In fact, I guess
it's not even Brazilian, it's an universal law).

Best regards,
hC

* This font equivalence was taken from Luc
Devroye's website.

[hugocristo]

Well..

It seems that this subject isn't interesting at
all or maybe it's too complex to be discussed
here in Typophile.

BTW thanks for the messages I've received
privately. I hope I've choosen the right
purchase option.

hC

[Miss Tiffany]

Hugo -- I actually meant to reply to this thread, and just kept forgetting. I would always recommend going directly through the foundry, as a first choice. But, that said, going through MyFonts is just as good an option. I purchased a couple different "collections" through MyFonts and see no reason to have done differently. Is this close to an answer?

[matteson]

Didn't see this thread. Sorry Hugo. From my experience:

The fonts I saw on the Fontsite CD were pretty terrible. Technically. I.e., fonts with absolutely no hinting, contours running on the wrong direction, etc.

I never did a comparison between their fonts (e.g., FS Caslon) and a font a knew to be reputable (e.g., Adobe Caslon) so I don't know if they were pure rip-offs or not. (Though I'm interested to do that right now - I'll let you know.)

I certainly don't want to suggest that they're an unethical bunch if they're not. But frankly, the fonts are dubious enough to put me off. And really appalling from the technical side.

I think those are 2 of the reasons certain font collections are so cheap. Technically inferior & (perhaps) merely stolen outlines from a proper foundry.

[matteson]

OK. That said, I think a lot of my students still use the Fontsite CD (some, unfortunately, for professional work). I suppose it's better to have FS Caslon at your disposal than to be stuck with Times New Roman for every project - if you're broke and you're school (in my case) doesn't provide a proper collection from Bitstream, Adobe, etc. Maybe.

[hugocristo]

Thanks Tiffany and Nathan for the feedback.

Buying fonts directly from the foundry always
seemed to be the best choice for me. That's
why those collections surprised me so much.

I've almost decided wich collection I'll buy,
probably Bitstream's Cambridge. But what still
makes me curious is how that font renaming
thing works. I mean, isn't there any legal way
of preventing an unauthorized redrawing and
reselling of an original font? And I'm not only
talking about things like Softmaker/Fontsite's
Sabon x Savoy, but also like Bitstream's
Humanist 521 x Gill Sans.

Let me put it better: What else, beyond ethics,
prevents anybody from redrawing one of my fonts
and reselling them under other names?

hC

[hrant]

I think it was the FontSite CD that was discussed on Typo-L many years ago, and it turned out that the guy selling it (Sean Cavannaugh) got the rights to all those fonts legitimately, when the parent font house (I forget who) did a barter with some money they owed him. So it's more the parent font house's fault.

hhp

[matteson]

>legitimately, when the parent font house (I forget who) did a barter

That's really interesting. I was at an old student's office last night and was looking at the FontSite CD - and I was wondering how it was possible to have "URW Grotesk" if it wasn't licensed. Makes more sense now. But it still doesn't explain why so many of the fonts aren't technically up to par.

>What else, beyond ethics,
prevents anybody from redrawing one of my fonts
and reselling them under other names?

As far as I understand it, if you work in the US, nothing prevents that. You can copyright the name of your typeface, but not the outlines. So anyone can rip off your outlines, change the name, and redistribute the font.

[matteson]

>but also like Bitstream's
Humanist 521 x Gill Sans.

Hugo, I believe there was a discussion about Bitstream and their naming conventions a month or two ago on Typophile. I'll try to dig up the link for you.

Try here and here.

[matteson]

Hugo, also take a look at this discussion re: Gill Sans.

[hugocristo]

Nathan said:
>So anyone can rip off your outlines, change the
name, and redistribute the font.

Well, that's really sad. Most of Brazilian
software-related laws are based on US
standards so I guess there's nothing to
do about it here.

Talking about the renaming issue, those links
were very helpful. I already knew most of those
threads but this time I've read them carefuly
and many of my questions became clear.

Another curious thing is the poor quality
Nathan mentioned. One would find lots of
statements on Softmakers' site telling how
professional, polished and well hinted their
fonts are. And they even include expert sets.

---

Hrant: I'm digging the Typo-L archives to find
the messages you said, but I still think that
'fantasy' name thing is somehow strange, mostly
because that equivalence list I've mentioned
can be found everywhere on the web.

Thanks everybody.

hC

(Now even the Cambridge CD seems 'evil' to me)

[hugocristo]

Here are the messages Hrant was talking about and this
is Sean Cavanaugh's (from FontSite) full explaination.

hC

[hrant]

Aaah, the good old days. ;-)

hhp

[hugocristo]

Yeah, really.

That archive works like a contemporary history
class for me. I had just entered college when
those messages were written.

I agree with some opinions I read there - like
newer typefaces should be more expensive than
the older ones - but marketing education is a
difficult subject, isn't it?

hC

PS: The wise proverb shows up again, revised -
you can't get something for nothing, even
if it's old and dusty

[matteson]

Thanks for digging up that link Hugo. Very interesting read. I feel somewhat bad now for assuming the FontSite CD was a piece of questionable garbage.

I'm wondering now, however, if I should go back to recommending the CD to my students. I suppose there's two ways to look at it. (1) If they don't buy the Fontsite CD, they'll probably just pirate fonts from some file-share network or other - and the CD is legal after all; (2) there's Hrant's view (which I assume you still hold, hhp) that the CD is detrimental to the type industry as a whole - so purchasing it is, in the long term, a "bad thing."

I suppose there's no easy answer to all of this.

[aluminum]

Isn't that like saying buying a chair at Wal-Mart is detrimental to the furniture design industry as a whole?

[hugocristo]

Darrel,

I don't agree with that. Design shouldn't be
understood as a way of selling products for
higher prices, but as way of making things
better, more accessible, cheaper, easier to
use etc.

I really don't know why fonts are so expensive
or if they should be cheaper.

The only thing I know is that if someone does
everything I do as twice as fast and with the
same quality, he should double his price as well
and not divide it at half.

I'm not saying that the Fontsite CD is evil.
My point is that its costumers must understand
its real purpose (educational/beginner's kit)
instead of thinking that everything else is
wrong, too expensive and not worth buying.

I think making a Wal-Mart Font CD wasn't Sean's
original purpose either

hC

[aluminum]

"The only thing I know is that if someone does
everything I do as twice as fast and with the
same quality, he should double his price as well
and not divide it at half."

That goes against basic competition in the open market. Some people prefer to sell on price, some on quality, a few can do both.

"My point is that its costumers must understand
its real purpose (educational/beginner's kit)
instead of thinking that everything else is
wrong, too expensive and not worth buying."

Well, it'd be nice if people realized that shopping at Wal-Mart isn't necessarily good for the planet or society as a whole. But that's how American Capitalism works. We sell as much as we can as cheap as we can. I'm not saying that's right, that's just what it is. I agree that the only solution is probably more consumer education.

[Riccardo Sartori]

I wish you will discover the power of comma separated list items as soon as possible.

[oldnick]

Hey, Ray Larabie!

How many you figure are ripoffs of our freeware stuff?

[Uli]

Years ago, I analyzed all Softmaker and Fontsite fonts:

http://www.sanskritweb.net/forgers/#MEGAFONT

Note that these fonts had been renamed repeatedly.

[Queneau]

Mr. Redux...

where are your sources, as I know a thing or two about fontsite and softmaker from previous research. Nothing you say is actually confirmed, and the dates seem just imaginary. can you explain?

edit:
You seem to be quite happy believeing in your own rumours, with posts by a certain Derek from California all over Topix on these themes. In fact the the new Megafont and infinitype release dates were denied in softmakers own forum. What do you wish to archieve with these posts??

Spam, anyone :P

[Queneau]

Moderators... this is getting silly, can you please look into this, this is SPAM.

[Té Rowan]

The canonical response: The spam skit.

[Queneau]

you tell us