Member hug… Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 This topic was imported from the Typophile platform Hello Typophiles, I've read the following statement in another thread (Understanding the legal issues...): Nathan Matteson: "I think James is hitting it right on the head here. I've been trying to get my school to buy a decent font collection - even if only for two or three "type specific" labs - for nigh on three years now. We just had a good instructor quit over the lack of type and the beaurocratic hoops you have to jump through to [not] get it. And the closest we got was our bookstore selling the dubious FontSite CD. :-/" Well, that statement came in good time. I've been browsing the websites of many typefoundries looking for a basic font CD collection to use on everyday's work at my office. I've considered all my options, from Bitstream to URW, and they range from U$ 120 to U$ 500... That was until yesterday, when I found both Softmaker (Megafont XXL) and Fontsite (CD 500) collections, priced as low as U$ 39 and U$ 49... So, what's up here? I've recognized many fonts under different names but I didn't get if those collections are legal or even "ethical". I'm planning to buy a font CD collection not only to be "clean", but also because I want to make sure that the designers would receive their proper royalties. I mean, what would Adrian Frutiger receive if I buy FrontPage* instead of Frutiger? I want to make clear that I'm not distrusting any company/person. I'm just curious why and how those similar font collections can have so different prices. There's a Brazilian proverb that says "o barato sai caro", wich means something like you cannot have something for nothing... (In fact, I guess it's not even Brazilian, it's an universal law). Best regards, hC * This font equivalence was taken from Luc Devroye's website. Link to comment
Member hug… Posted October 6, 2003 Author Share Posted October 6, 2003 Well.. It seems that this subject isn't interesting at all or maybe it's too complex to be discussed here in Typophile. BTW thanks for the messages I've received privately. I hope I've choosen the right purchase option. hC Link to comment
Member Mis… Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Hugo -- I actually meant to reply to this thread, and just kept forgetting. I would always recommend going directly through the foundry, as a first choice. But, that said, going through MyFonts is just as good an option. I purchased a couple different "collections" through MyFonts and see no reason to have done differently. Is this close to an answer? Link to comment
Member mat… Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Didn't see this thread. Sorry Hugo. From my experience: The fonts I saw on the Fontsite CD were pretty terrible. Technically. I.e., fonts with absolutely no hinting, contours running on the wrong direction, etc. I never did a comparison between their fonts (e.g., FS Caslon) and a font a knew to be reputable (e.g., Adobe Caslon) so I don't know if they were pure rip-offs or not. (Though I'm interested to do that right now - I'll let you know.) I certainly don't want to suggest that they're an unethical bunch if they're not. But frankly, the fonts are dubious enough to put me off. And really appalling from the technical side. I think those are 2 of the reasons certain font collections are so cheap. Technically inferior & (perhaps) merely stolen outlines from a proper foundry. Link to comment
Member mat… Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 OK. That said, I think a lot of my students still use the Fontsite CD (some, unfortunately, for professional work). I suppose it's better to have FS Caslon at your disposal than to be stuck with Times New Roman for every project - if you're broke and you're school (in my case) doesn't provide a proper collection from Bitstream, Adobe, etc. Maybe. Link to comment
Member hug… Posted October 6, 2003 Author Share Posted October 6, 2003 Thanks Tiffany and Nathan for the feedback. Buying fonts directly from the foundry always seemed to be the best choice for me. That's why those collections surprised me so much. I've almost decided wich collection I'll buy, probably Bitstream's Cambridge. But what still makes me curious is how that font renaming thing works. I mean, isn't there any legal way of preventing an unauthorized redrawing and reselling of an original font? And I'm not only talking about things like Softmaker/Fontsite's Sabon x Savoy, but also like Bitstream's Humanist 521 x Gill Sans. Let me put it better: What else, beyond ethics, prevents anybody from redrawing one of my fonts and reselling them under other names? hC Link to comment
Member hra… Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 I think it was the FontSite CD that was discussed on Typo-L many years ago, and it turned out that the guy selling it (Sean Cavannaugh) got the rights to all those fonts legitimately, when the parent font house (I forget who) did a barter with some money they owed him. So it's more the parent font house's fault. hhp Link to comment
Member mat… Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 >legitimately, when the parent font house (I forget who) did a barter That's really interesting. I was at an old student's office last night and was looking at the FontSite CD - and I was wondering how it was possible to have "URW Grotesk" if it wasn't licensed. Makes more sense now. But it still doesn't explain why so many of the fonts aren't technically up to par. >What else, beyond ethics, prevents anybody from redrawing one of my fonts and reselling them under other names? As far as I understand it, if you work in the US, nothing prevents that. You can copyright the name of your typeface, but not the outlines. So anyone can rip off your outlines, change the name, and redistribute the font. Link to comment
Member mat… Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 >but also like Bitstream's Humanist 521 x Gill Sans. Hugo, I believe there was a discussion about Bitstream and their naming conventions a month or two ago on Typophile. I'll try to dig up the link for you. Try here and here. Link to comment
Member mat… Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Hugo, also take a look at this discussion re: Gill Sans. Link to comment
Member hug… Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 Nathan said: >So anyone can rip off your outlines, change the name, and redistribute the font. Well, that's really sad. Most of Brazilian software-related laws are based on US standards so I guess there's nothing to do about it here. Talking about the renaming issue, those links were very helpful. I already knew most of those threads but this time I've read them carefuly and many of my questions became clear. Another curious thing is the poor quality Nathan mentioned. One would find lots of statements on Softmakers' site telling how professional, polished and well hinted their fonts are. And they even include expert sets. --- Hrant: I'm digging the Typo-L archives to find the messages you said, but I still think that 'fantasy' name thing is somehow strange, mostly because that equivalence list I've mentioned can be found everywhere on the web. Thanks everybody. hC (Now even the Cambridge CD seems 'evil' to me) Link to comment
Member hug… Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 Here are the messages Hrant was talking about and this is Sean Cavanaugh's (from FontSite) full explaination. hC Link to comment
Member hra… Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Aaah, the good old days. ;-) hhp Link to comment
Member hug… Posted October 7, 2003 Author Share Posted October 7, 2003 Yeah, really. That archive works like a contemporary history class for me. I had just entered college when those messages were written. I agree with some opinions I read there - like newer typefaces should be more expensive than the older ones - but marketing education is a difficult subject, isn't it? hC PS: The wise proverb shows up again, revised - you can't get something for nothing, even if it's old and dusty Link to comment
Member mat… Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Thanks for digging up that link Hugo. Very interesting read. I feel somewhat bad now for assuming the FontSite CD was a piece of questionable garbage. I'm wondering now, however, if I should go back to recommending the CD to my students. I suppose there's two ways to look at it. (1) If they don't buy the Fontsite CD, they'll probably just pirate fonts from some file-share network or other - and the CD is legal after all; (2) there's Hrant's view (which I assume you still hold, hhp) that the CD is detrimental to the type industry as a whole - so purchasing it is, in the long term, a "bad thing." I suppose there's no easy answer to all of this. Link to comment
Member alu… Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Isn't that like saying buying a chair at Wal-Mart is detrimental to the furniture design industry as a whole? Link to comment
Member hug… Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 Darrel, I don't agree with that. Design shouldn't be understood as a way of selling products for higher prices, but as way of making things better, more accessible, cheaper, easier to use etc. I really don't know why fonts are so expensive or if they should be cheaper. The only thing I know is that if someone does everything I do as twice as fast and with the same quality, he should double his price as well and not divide it at half. I'm not saying that the Fontsite CD is evil. My point is that its costumers must understand its real purpose (educational/beginner's kit) instead of thinking that everything else is wrong, too expensive and not worth buying. I think making a Wal-Mart Font CD wasn't Sean's original purpose either hC Link to comment
Member alu… Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 "The only thing I know is that if someone does everything I do as twice as fast and with the same quality, he should double his price as well and not divide it at half." That goes against basic competition in the open market. Some people prefer to sell on price, some on quality, a few can do both. "My point is that its costumers must understand its real purpose (educational/beginner's kit) instead of thinking that everything else is wrong, too expensive and not worth buying." Well, it'd be nice if people realized that shopping at Wal-Mart isn't necessarily good for the planet or society as a whole. But that's how American Capitalism works. We sell as much as we can as cheap as we can. I'm not saying that's right, that's just what it is. I agree that the only solution is probably more consumer education. Link to comment
Member Ric… Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I wish you will discover the power of comma separated list items as soon as possible. Link to comment
Member old… Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Hey, Ray Larabie! How many you figure are ripoffs of our freeware stuff? Link to comment
Member Uli… Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Years ago, I analyzed all Softmaker and Fontsite fonts: http://www.sanskritweb.net/forgers/#MEGAFONT Note that these fonts had been renamed repeatedly. Link to comment
Member Que… Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Mr. Redux... where are your sources, as I know a thing or two about fontsite and softmaker from previous research. Nothing you say is actually confirmed, and the dates seem just imaginary. can you explain? edit: You seem to be quite happy believeing in your own rumours, with posts by a certain Derek from California all over Topix on these themes. In fact the the new Megafont and infinitype release dates were denied in softmakers own forum. What do you wish to archieve with these posts?? Spam, anyone :P Link to comment
Member Que… Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Moderators... this is getting silly, can you please look into this, this is SPAM. Link to comment
Member Té… Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The canonical response: The spam skit. Link to comment
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