Akzidenz Grotesk

[Member iot…]

This topic was imported from the Typophile platform

Just wondering which foundry's digitisation of Akzidenz Grotesk you consider to be the best.

Linotype or Berthold?

[Member Joe…]

There are various reasons to avoid the Berthold version, even though it's a solid cut.

[Member Joe…]

http://typographi.ca/000500.php

[Member ano…]

What has Delta faucets and Delta Airlines got to do with Delta the typeface family. Absolutely nothing. They are all in different goods and servies for trademark purposes.

I would imagine if Jamie had named his typeface Omicron Univers, Omicron Gill, or Omicron Utopia that he would have encountered problems with their respective TM owners.

This kind of misinformation only makes it confusing for designers looking for new names for typefaces.

Nigel

[Member hra…]

In the US, it doesn't matter. If you're rich, you can afford a lawyer-army, and you get your way. I wouldn't mind so much, if I didn't keep hearing American tourists complaining about "the bribery problem in the 3rd world". Akhoulsharmoota.

hhp

[Member ano…]

In the U.S. the issue is who has senior rights in a trademark.

A person has common law rights even if the trademark is not registered In the U.S.

In Europe it is more about who has first registered the trademark and not who used it first.

Nigel

[Member Chr…]

Think that's ridiculous? Check this case out.

Windows vs. Lindows becomes Windows vs. Lin

[Member hra…]

> [Money is] an international legal language.

Certainly. The problem is that while the rest of the world realizes is wallowing in mud (and has lousy leaders), the US thinks it's doing great! This has the result that social improvement becomes even more difficult. The formalization of bribery (political lobbying, PACs, etc.) is much worse than bribery itself.

hhp

[Member ano…]

In the Microsoft case the Lindows attack on Microsoft is that "Windows" is "generic" and therefore not registerable as a trademark.

Nigel

[Member Chr…]

That part of it seems semi-reasonable, but the part that I find ridiculous is Microsoft's arguement that Lin

[Member ano…]

In response to the original question regarding which cut of Akzidenz Grotesk is the best.

Linotype originally only released four weights in normal width (in a cross license agreement with Berthold per Erik Spiekermann's old post). They are no longer available.

The original Berthold versions have normal, condensed, and extended widths. The choice is obvious.

Joseph Pemberton's comment regarding avoiding Berthold because he does not agree with how a company protects its intellectual property (most of the posts simply do not understand trademark law and why it is essential to protect a trademark) is irrelevant for judging typeface quality.

Nigel Hamilton

[Member hra…]

But people can still express their displeasure in whatever way works for them, including not buying stuff from a company they feel is behaving unethically. We live on a small world, and bad behavior is contagious.

hhp

[Member ano…]

Of course people can express their own views but what is "unethical" or "bad behavior" about protecting valuable intellectual property?

Hrant, your comment about "prior art for Delta" is irrelevant regarding trademarks. That is why you have Delta Airlines, Delta faucets, Delta typeface etc. All different classes of goods.

Joe's comment about "nobody believes Berthold will suffer a loss in the marketplace" is not the point. If a company lets one person do it, then another will follow and so on until it falls into the public domain.

Escalator, Band-Aid, Asprin, Shredded-Wheat, and Kerosene" were once trademarks. Those trademarks became generic because the corporations that originally owned them did not properly use them, and they allowed anyone to use them improperly.


Nigel Hamilton

[Member hra…]

Nigel, where do you live?
It seems you have no idea how the US really works. But maybe ignorance is bliss!

> what is "unethical" or "bad behavior" about protecting valuable intellectual property?

As always, it's not what you do, but how you do it.

> "prior art for Delta" is irrelevant regarding trademarks.

Irrelevant to whom? To the abusive corporation who has the desire and ability to launch a frivolous lawsuit that it knows can't be challenged by the poor slob individual because you have to be rich to go to court to begin with? In the states, the only really good strategy for financial stability is this: don't attract the gaze of the cyclopses. And the cyclopses know this - heck, they set up this decrepit system!

hhp

[Member ano…]

>As always, it's not what you do, but how you do it.
Yes, but according to the posts they sent "cease and desist" letters so at least they didn't just file a lawsuit without giving notice first. What are they supposed to do if the response is f--- off?

>Irrelevant to whom?
Irrelevant to whether it qualifies to be registered as a trademark.

>To the abusive corporation who has the desire and ability to launch a frivolous lawsuit.
You obviously do not know how the process works. Did you know that "Frivolous" lawsuits are sanctionable. No law firm in their right mind would risk being sanctioned by a Federal judge.

>It seems you have no idea how the US really works.
If you really have such disdain for the U.S. perhaps you might be happier living somewhere else.

Nigel Hamilton

[Member hra…]

Nigel, you simply don't know Berthold's history. And the fact that nobody with half a brain will reveal it in public is telling.

> Irrelevant to whether it qualifies to be registered as a trademark.

Who cares. Humans come first.

> perhaps you might be happier living somewhere else.

Not "perhaps", most definitely. But I'm not about to explain my life to you and your ilk.

hhp

[Member ano…]

>Nigel, you simply don't know Berthold's history. And the fact that nobody with half a brain will reveal it in public is telling.

There was plenty in the previous posts but most of that was simply ignorance of how trademark law works.

Apart from trademark issues has Berthold done anything personal to any of the people in the posts including you?

> Irrelevant to whether it qualifies to be registered as a trademark.
>Who cares. Humans come first.

Then join the Peace Corps. Why are you in this industry?

>But I'm not about to explain my life to you and your ilk.

I wouldn't trust personal things to you either.

Hrant, you certainly have the gift of the gab but you lack substance with respect to intellectual property matters.

Nigel Hamilton

[Member hra…]

So I guess you think I have less than half a brain?
That says more about you than me.

BTW, I would learn to clean sewage before learning about IP.

hhp

[Member ano…]

>So I guess you think I have less than half a brain?

On the contrary, I just said that you do not understand intellectual property.

>BTW, I would learn to clean sewage before learning about IP.

And they say educated people in the U.S. refuse to do these types of jobs. Bravo Hrant!

Nigel Hamilton

[Member Joe…]

You two lost me back there...

But Nigel, you're totally right when it comes to purchasing Akzidenz Grotesk the clear choice is the Berthold version. (And Akzidenz Grotesk is a great face, without question.)

The folks who bought the Berthold library made an excellent business decision. I just think their practices since then don't make great business sense. Maybe they're protecting their font names, but they're dragging the Berthold name through the mud with their hyper-litigiousness.

I haven't heard of Windows verses Lindows, but I did laugh about the Microsoft verses Mike Rowe (who holds MikeRoweSoft.com). Does MS really think that MikeRowe and his site are going to cause confusion? (Or is it that over time a bunch of Mike Rowe's could take MS' name into the public domain.) If they had a sense of humor they could laugh with the rest of us.

[Member ano…]

>I just think their practices since then don't make great business sense. Maybe they're protecting their font names, but they're dragging the Berthold name through the mud with their hyper-litigiousness.

Joe if Berthold sent Nick Curtis a cease and desist letter and he responded no or simply ignored it is Berthold supposed to leave him alone just because he is a nice guy who looks at things differently?

From the posts Berthold then sued Nick Curtis and he changed the names, This is not bad business sense it is essential to protecting intellectual property.

If you look at Berthold, Linotype and Monotype all the equipment is gone and the only item of value remaining is the intellectual property (trademarks, outlines and copyright). I think you will find that all three companies vigourously protect their trademarks and copyright.

Nigel Hamilton

[Member hra…]

> it is essential to protecting intellectual property.

In the same way that cluster bombs are essential to imperialism?

hhp

[Member ano…]

Hrant

Comparing intellectual property with cluster bombs!

You would be perfect for "Speakers Corner" in Hyde Park, London.

Nigel Hamilton

[Member Wil…]

>it is essential to protecting intellectual property

Leaving aside Hrant's raving, my impression that many on these boards do not understand the legal situation with intellectual property rights, which are important to the type business.

As Nigel says, my understanding is that the owner of a trademark is required to sue or risk losing ownership of the trademark. This is perhaps a bad law, but that is the box that it puts the trademark owner in. If all that Berthold is doing is protecting its trademarks, I do not think they can be faulted for that, and people should not boycott them for that reason.

In the US, my understanding is that only the name can be trademarked, and that in general design itself is not protected. The laws do seem to need changing, but Berthold should not be blamed for the box that the law puts them in.

I am not a lawyer, and I do not know about Berthold's business practices generally, but there needs to be some understanding of the problem any digital foundry faces.

Perhaps other owners of digital foundries can comment.

[Member hra…]

> many on these boards do not understand the
> legal situation with intellectual property rights

That's secondary. Most people on these boards understand something much more important than the technicalities of IP law - they understand what it is to be decent, and why decency is the central pillar of a healthy society.

Your society favors bastards over decent people. So of course your laws are crappy. Dismiss it as "ranting" if you like, and it might take decades, but the revolution is coming, and heads will roll. If you care about your grandchildren, you will repent as soon as possible.

hhp