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Client request: "eliminate all hyphens" in newsletter

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pattyfab

I turn off Adobe Paragraph Composer too. I'm too much of a control freak to let the program rag my text for me, and I don't think it does such a great job.

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elliot100

Hrant: I don't see why you would need any hyphenation character in a URL at all. Why not just break after a slash, or if necessary anywhere else? Given that URLs start with "http://" or "www" or similar it should be clear where the URL starts.

I'm looking at a PHP manual where faint halftoned arrows are used *after* the line break to indicate run on lines. But then it's much more difficult to tell what's happening from context

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ChuckGroth

hrant-
Like I said, it's an interesting solution for the url line. I'm going to play with it a bit and see how well it "works" aesthetically for me.

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jupiterboy

Just finished a job with the same request. The client also requested that I not set the numerals as subscript, which translates to old style.

My initial read was that this person was used to fixing on the no-hyphens. I just worked with it and kicked it back for small re-writes to fix the worst problems. It still isn't as good as it could have been with a few selective hyphens, but as stated above, with the right measure you can work it out.

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cooper design

With apologies, I thought the comment—nay, essay— wasn't sufficiently typographic in nature. And what it lacked in concision it made up for with wildly inflated rhetoric. In lieu of a poorly rewritten version, the gist was, in short, that the client's rigid No Hyphen mandate is largely a declaration of status meant to shape the relationship. To absolutely assert an arbitrary rule concerning something so trifling is a sort of preemptive scolding, a very slight symbolic degredation of your social rank: "Don't forget that there are limits to your ownership here. You will respect me and do as I say."

If you are not working inside an organization with a formalized system of rank, these sort of superior/subordinate negotiations go on all the time. The point of contention is always, necessarily, trivial. How adroitly you handle the process — the degree to which you push back, comply, or renegotiate — obviously has less to do with design strategy and more to do with a sensitivity to political pressure. But I would suggest that there are a number of creative solutions that will allow one to produce work of the highest quality and also let your client know that she is valued, heard and respected. And I think achieving those two things together is the real goal.

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Linda Cunningham

And what it lacked in concision it made up for with wildly inflated rhetoric.

Having seen the original, that comment is quite an understatement.

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ChuckGroth

Hmmm... I did several projects with a client that said, "Our headline face is Torino."

To me, it sounds like much the same thing. I don't happen to have many relationships with clients that I would describe as adversarial, although I admit -- they do sometimes exist.

In the end, I think (and this is my personal take) that both designer and client have a stake of ownership (for want of a better term) of a project, but perhaps the greater stake must belong to the client; it's to they that designers hope to give a voice, and it's also they who will either be served or not with the design.

If you work at an office where the boss says, "No bolo ties," I think it's a losing position to declare that bolos, are, in fact, the accessory that asserts your freedom of expression. The boss has an overall image they are hoping to project, and if that one look doesn't fit into the definition, as they see it, them so be it.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

Any designer can work without hyphens, if they need to.

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jupiterboy

With apologies, I thought the comment—nay, essay— wasn’t sufficiently typographic in nature. And what it lacked in concision it made up for with wildly inflated rhetoric. In lieu of a poorly rewritten version, the gist was, in short, that the client’s rigid No Hyphen mandate is largely a declaration of status meant to shape the relationship. To absolutely assert an arbitrary rule concerning something so trifling is a sort of preemptive scolding, a very slight symbolic degredation of your social rank: “Don’t forget that there are limits to your ownership here. You will respect me and do as I say.”
If you are not working inside an organization with a formalized system of rank, these sort of superior/subordinate negotiations go on all the time. The point of contention is always, necessarily, trivial. How adroitly you handle the process — the degree to which you push back, comply, or renegotiate — obviously has less to do with design strategy and more to do with a sensitivity to political pressure. But I would suggest that there are a number of creative solutions that will allow one to produce work of the highest quality and also let your client know that she is valued, heard and respected. And I think achieving those two things together is the real goal.

Sry I missed the original. This is right on though. Most of human actions don't rise above the basic pissing and sniffing we are so fond of. To elevate the discussion to the betterment of the communication and function is limited by the lack of social intelligence.

To add a little more complexity, I believe the person I was working with was demonstrating to me her methods of dominating the in-house designer she was used to working with. My experience is that pressure to move in a better direction is best applied consistently over time. I'm sure my explanation of old style characters, which she had assumed were subscript?, did not sit well with her and only strengthened her resolve to not bend on other well established routines.

Please send me the original comment if it is still to be had.

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pattyfab

Well part of being a designer is that you are also frequently dealing with people who have a little bit of knowledge about type and/or design, and want to make sure you know that. It is a power game - if they're the client they want to make sure they're getting what they pay for (and that you know you work for them). If they're the client's representative or liaison then they want to prove their importance to the client - make sure the clients believes they are instrumental to the design process.

I've had all sorts of design rules spouted at me and most of the time, unless it's something I have a serious objection to, I roll with it. Being a difficult designer isn't gonna help you in the long run.

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litera

It's like going to the dentist and telling him what and how to do it. Seems realistic? Not really.

But unfortunately there are many people out there that they think they can outsmart the dentist. Of course they're the ones that end up with "worst teeth".

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KenBessie

It’s like going to the dentist and telling him what and how to do it. Seems realistic? Not really.

No, it's not like that at all. Everybody, every human being, has some sense of design. It's true that not everybody is a fashion designer, but everybody can put together an ensemble. It's true that not everybody is an interior designer, but everybody can paint four walls or hang posters.

The profession of dentistry has nothing to do with design. So it's more like going a hair stylist and telling him what to do and how to do it. And that happens all the time.

Design is subjective. (Tiffany that said that on another thread, and I agree wholeheartedly.)

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Linda Cunningham

So it’s more like going a hair stylist and telling him what to do and how to do it. And that happens all the time.

And that's why there are still people who have mullets.... ;-)

Design is subjective. (Tiffany that said that on another thread, and I agree wholeheartedly.)

I do too, although one could say the same thing about music, even for people who can't carry a tune in a bucket or have the sense of rhythm of a dead slug. Most (but not all) of them know their limitations.

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hrant

Not all of Design is subjective - certainly not all of
text typography. That would make it Art (god forbid).

hhp

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Miss Tiffany

When I said that I'm sure I was generalizing. While anything with intrinsic aesthetic value is subjective, there are of course those who know and those who don't know. That sounds terribly arrogant, but it is the truth.

I might create something which my client really likes, but that I will not put in my portfolio because I see many things which I wouldn't do given the option. Does that make more sense?

I'll add that sometimes in life it isn't about the portfolio, but it is about getting that check.

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KenBessie

And that’s why there are still people who have mullets…. ;-)

Yes, bad design exists.

Not all of Design is subjective - certainly not all of
text typography. That would make it Art (god forbid).

Or Science (god forbid). But I would argue that text typography is subjective...individually, culturally, and historically.

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hrant

> text typography is subjective

Party, yes. Everything is (even Science).
But for example ignoring that serifs help readability is... worse than a mullet!

hhp

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fontplayer

> But for example ignoring that serifs help readability is… worse than a mullet!

That's quite a strong statement; seemingly hyperbole, and calls into question your fashion sense.
; )

PS, can someone go back to Jupiterboy's post and add the /cite please?

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